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"Oh, and there's also literally no evidence of such a conspiracy."

What about the GamesJournoPros mailing list, where SEVERAL people on the list were hounding Greg Tito to shut down the Escapist forums where the main bit of the GG movement was taking place? They clearly didn't want us talking about it anywhere public. And before you say it was to stop harassment, Greg says in the mailing list that we were mostly being very civil.

Also, Occam's Razor can be tricky. Corrupt Journalists try to discredit movement aimed at exposing Corrupt Journalism isn't exactly a stretch.

Matt wrote:

Rathkor wrote:"But dismiss that all other press reports were practically identical to Greyson's article."

Gee, it's almost like we're accusing them of colluding. If only we had some sort of evidence that they were doing something like that. Like a mailing list, or something.

A mailing list that shows no actual collusion.

-m

They talk about how to handle the Zoe story. When someone asked why they shouldn't post about Zoe Quinn's personal life, but they were okay reporting on someone else's, He received a lot of scorn from the group without ever getting a real answer. Seems like collusion to me.

Who's personal life are you referring to, that they reported on that is?

It might have been Brad Wardell. My memory on the specific name is a little fuzzy.

The name you are looking for are Josh Mattingly, If you are referring to the Gameprojournous list.
Regards
/MachinaDeus

Fair enough. And saved by a Deus ex Machina, as well. Touche.

Rathkor wrote:

Matt wrote:

Rathkor wrote:"But dismiss that all other press reports were practically identical to Greyson's article."

Gee, it's almost like we're accusing them of colluding. If only we had some sort of evidence that they were doing something like that. Like a mailing list, or something.

A mailing list that shows no actual collusion.

-m

They talk about how to handle the Zoe story. When someone asked why they shouldn't post about Zoe Quinn's personal life, but they were okay reporting on someone else's, He received a lot of scorn from the group without ever getting a real answer. Seems like collusion to me.

I don't see any issues with a professional games journalist who's having trouble figuring out how to handle a sensitive issue ask other professionals about it.

In fact, it's exactly what i'd do. I do it all the time in my job. I go and ask other people how they'd handle a situation or an issue the right way. That's not "collusion". Collusion is going "hey everyone, we need to make sure that we totally control everything about this and that nobody can be out of step with us, or there's a big problem."

I didn't see any of that in the gamejournopros list. I saw a lot of discussion.

I'll be a while before I can respond to the Zoe Quinn-Josh Mattingly thing(seeing as looking through this thread I haven't been able to find the mail list again, so I've probably missed it) and I have studying I need to get done, and thus have finite time to spend on the discussion for now.

I do recall the two situations being different from one another when I read about it, but I don't want to say more than that before I've re-read as I can't recall the exact situation.

If anyone else who remembers the situation wants to respond then feel free.

So, ganging up on Greg Tito and repeatedly telling him to delete the forum, that wasn't "...nobody can be out of step with us, or there's a big problem.""? The journalist asking why one story was okay to cover but the similar one wasn't? Heck, he was asking the group why it wasn't okay to cover the story. That means the group basically made it where he wouldn't cover a story. So yeah, that was collusion.

Hi everyone. My name is Doh. Know Your Meme archivist and have been documenting this along side my KYM friends since day 1.

If you have any questions, fire away. If not, I will just be here watching.

Rathkor wrote:So, ganging up on Greg Tito and repeatedly telling him to delete the forum, that wasn't "...nobody can be out of step with us, or there's a big problem.""? The journalist asking why one story was okay to cover but the similar one wasn't? Heck, he was asking the group why it wasn't okay to cover the story. That means the group basically made it where he wouldn't cover a story. So yeah, that was collusion.

Can you point me to the specific parts that you mention here? I do not remember seeing them when I read through that.

Rathkor wrote:So, ganging up on Greg Tito and repeatedly telling him to delete the forum, that wasn't "...nobody can be out of step with us, or there's a big problem.""?

Considering that the people arguing with Greg over whether or not the Escapist forums should have continued to host the gamergate thread:

A) people are allowed to have opinions on things and express them - sometimes even with a little venom. Calling on an EIC (even forcefully) to exercise some control over his community, because his community is rapidly becoming a toxic breeding ground for organized campaigns of misinformation isn't "collusion".

B) Tito never actually did close the thread, so evidently the influence of that group was toothless.

Rathkor wrote:The journalist asking why one story was okay to cover but the similar one wasn't? Heck, he was asking the group why it wasn't okay to cover the story. That means the group basically made it where he wouldn't cover a story. So yeah, that was collusion.

The conversation you are referring to was a discussion between journalistic professionals as to where the line of ethical reporting falls when exposing private details about a person's sex life - and whether there is a distinction between reporting on a relationship between industry professionals, versus reporting on allegations of sexual misconduct in the form of harassment and assault between professionals.

That's not collusion- that's an actual discussion of ethical journalism.

-m

Also, I feel the need to point out that no one has the right to speak in a space owned by someone else. If I have a site and I want to ban you arbitrarily, tough beans. My site, my rules.

No right of free speech exists with regard to private entities.

Well, technically Free Speech is always applied, but it goes as far as "the government can not prosecute you for it". If you don't want to provide people a stage for their opinions, you are allowed to show them the door.

http://xkcd.com/1357/

A) people are allowed to have opinions on things and express them - sometimes even with a little venom. Calling on an EIC (even forcefully) to exercise some control over his community, because his community is rapidly becoming a toxic breeding ground for organized campaigns of misinformation isn't "collusion".

Tito himself even said that thread WASN'T the toxic cesspool everyone was claiming it was. Just to be clear, you just said it was okay to shut down a forum who was expressing opinions you disagree with and that one of the higher ranking employees of the site claimed we were actually discussing things in a civil manner?

And

B) Tito never actually did close the thread, so evidently the influence of that group was toothless.

So, just because they FAILED to do something means they get a pass on trying to do it in the first place? So, it's only bad if they succeed?

The conversation you are referring to was a discussion as to why it is ok to cover a story about sexual assault or and harassment

Zoe Quinn, it would seem, is no stranger to sexual harassment.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1BPzMLJ9xAU/U ... ilfish.PNG

So, If it's okay to report on on act of sexual harassment, why not the other?

"Well, technically Free Speech is always applied, but it goes as far as "the government can not prosecute you for it". If you don't want to provide people a stage for their opinions, you are allowed to show them the door."

Fair enough. Until they start strong arming someone to close down THEIR open discussion of it. Then it starts to cross a line.

You could argue that ZQ's have sex with her boss, a game journalist and a fellow dev that happened to be a judge of game comp that her game won awards is sexual misconduct in itself. It is just that it come in a whole different direction. And that raised a whole lot of questions about journalistic ethics, collusion and corruption right there.

It does not have to be harassment or assault to be sexual misconduct.

Holy shit why don't people put this much effort into something that actually matters.

https://thezoepost.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/blue.jpg

And here we have Zoe Quinn admitting to having sex with her boyfriend WITHOUT consent. Reporters never reported on this, but they were quick to write a story on Brad Wardell's ACCUSATION, which was later dismissed with prejudice. If that story was worth running, why not this one?

Because she was friends with all those journalists?

So, journalists refusing to write a story about someone they are friends with. But being friends with someone doesn't impair their ability to be objective?

Keep in mind on the Brad Wardell story, Ben Kuchera originally titled it as "damning evidence", which is basically some Facebook post. And everyone and their mother jumped on Brad. Then later on Ben backpedal as "heavy allegation" once the case is dismissed with prejudice (ie it cannot bring up again) and the women sent Brad Wardell a formal apology.

No sorry, no apology from the press, on what arguably a private matter.

And what had happened to Brad Wardell?
He endured harassments and threats for 5+ years.
His kid got threatened at school
His wife got threatened.
He got email that threaten to rape his wife and sodomize his son.
And worst of all? Now he had a stain on his life that will forever be tainted, even though it is a bullshit allegation.

I hate to try to win the Oppresion Olympic, but let's put it in perspective, shall we?

So Rathkor pointed out that things like the whole DoritoShitstorm and the PS4 event of last year* were just the start of frustrations boiling under the surface. So I was curious if the movement is also leaping onto AAA scandals. I did a quick check to see if the Gamergate hashtag made any mention of the recent Shadow of Mordor bullshit. The one about advanced review copies only going out to Youtubers if they were packed with a brand deal.

I couldn't find any mention of it in the hashtag-list, but I might be doing it wrong. Is there a way for Twitter to show you all the tweets in a hashtag? Because there is no way there were only 12 tweets with #Gamergate in them yesterday.

*where journalists could pick up their PS4's with their names engraved.

EDIT: Doh, had it on top tweets, not all. I will report back once I have check them all *grabs a coffee*

RedNightmare wrote:So Rathkor pointed out that things like the whole DoritoShitstorm and the PS4 event of last year* were just the start of frustrations boiling under the surface. So I was curious if the movement is also leaping onto AAA scandals. I did a quick check to see if the Gamergate hashtag made any mention of the recent Shadow of Mordor bullshit. The one about advanced review copies only going out to Youtubers if they were packed with a brand deal.

I couldn't find any mention of it in the hashtag-list, but I might be doing it wrong. Is there a way for Twitter to show you all the tweets in a hashtag? Because there is no way there were only 12 tweets with #Gamergate in them yesterday.

*where journalists could pick up their PS4's with their names engraved,

TotalBiscuit did mentioned it and a lot of people in #gamergate know it.
For now i don't think there will be any leaping to AAA for now though.

However, the newest email leak does have something very interesting:

Way to cost Activision 2.5 millions.

Either they plot to bump up Destiny's score to help their pals at Bungie, or they colluded to sank Destiny down. Both are bad.

RedNightmare wrote:So Rathkor pointed out that things like the whole DoritoShitstorm and the PS4 event of last year* were just the start of frustrations boiling under the surface. So I was curious if the movement is also leaping onto AAA scandals. I did a quick check to see if the Gamergate hashtag made any mention of the recent Shadow of Mordor bullshit. The one about advanced review copies only going out to Youtubers if they were packed with a brand deal.

I couldn't find any mention of it in the hashtag-list, but I might be doing it wrong. Is there a way for Twitter to show you all the tweets in a hashtag? Because there is no way there were only 12 tweets with #Gamergate in them yesterday.

*where journalists could pick up their PS4's with their names engraved,

No clue. Don't twitter. In the Escapist thread we were praising Total Biscuit for having the integrity to turn their offer down. Had a lot of people asking if a Youtuber could do something so ethical, that it shouldn't be that hard for journalists to do the same.

Ok, found it. It got mentioned a little, but not a lot of top traction. So disregard my earlier question. I need to think a bit more to put my thoughts in order before I weigh in completely.

Mr.Doh wrote:
However, the newest email leak does have something very interesting:

Way to cost Activision 2.5 millions.

Either they plot to bump up Destiny's score to help their pals at Bungie, or they colluded to sank Destiny down. Both are bad.

Or - as when I read "Way to cost Activision $2.5M, guys", I think - this is NOTHING to do with conspiracy, collusion or any sort of agenda or concerted effort to cause something, but a snarky retort in regards to someone accidentally bringing about this apparent multimillion-dollar misfortune.

"Never assume malice when incompetence will suffice." - Hanlon's Razor

For someone to conclude that something IS evidence of a conspiracy when there's plenty of contrary interpretations evident shows more about that person than the supposed 'evidence'...