Scottish Independence - Spoiler: NO won

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Elomin Sha
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Scottish Independence - Spoiler: NO won

Postby Elomin Sha » 13 Sep 2014, 14:44

Since there are a few Scot forum members or those that have Scottish family members I wondered why this wasn't made a while back.

This Thursday Scotland votes on a referendum whether they should be an independent country or not. What are everyone's thoughts?
I'm rather interested which ever way the vote goes.
Last edited by Elomin Sha on 19 Sep 2014, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jamfalcon » 13 Sep 2014, 14:54

I know next to nothing on the issue, since I haven't really been following beyond knowing that it's happening, but I'll be interested to see how it shapes up. Even if I am only 1/8th Scottish, it's always been a part of my ancestry I identify more strongly with due to knowing a lot more of the family history.

So I will watch and contribute nothing to this conversation, as is my way.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby bar room hero » 13 Sep 2014, 15:03

I'm no Scot, I'm Welsh, and genuinely do not want to get drawn into an argument/debate on it all but my opinion is they should vote No. I think a Yes vote would be catastrophic as most businesses have said they would move their base of operations to England if the Yes vote goes through.Once again, I can't iterate enough that this is just my opinion, I respect any ones right to disagree completely, especially the Scots themselves, its their vote after all
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Volafortis » 13 Sep 2014, 15:04

Hasn't Scottish Independence been sort of similar to Quebecois Independence in terms of support, historically? Something that's got enough political traction to be worth considering as a potential thing to occur, but always gets turned down?

If not, you must excuse my ignorance on the matter; I may be thinking of something else.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Amake » 13 Sep 2014, 15:12

It's certainly for the Scots to decide for themselves. I don't know enough to pick a side, I only hope this isn't an expression of the trends towards isolationism and foreigner hating that's tainting so much of European politics today, and that the racist parties aren't going to use Scotland as an argument for the righteousness of closing all borders if they vote for independence.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Elomin Sha » 13 Sep 2014, 15:18

Volafortis wrote:Hasn't Scottish Independence been sort of similar to Quebecois Independence in terms of support, historically? Something that's got enough political traction to be worth considering as a potential thing to occur, but always gets turned down?

If not, you must excuse my ignorance on the matter; I may be thinking of something else.


The Scots haven't attacked anyone so that's a bonus. It was 14 or 17 years (I think) ago when they were given their own assembly for semi-self governance. Wales has something similar.

Amake I wouldn't think there's much isolationism maybe some small groups, being where I am I obviously haven't heard anything like that.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby AdmiralMemo » 13 Sep 2014, 15:20

I've got probably a majority of Scottish ancestry, but I have no real thoughts on the matter, due to not living in Scotland and not keeping up with the issue. (I've also got some Irish and Native American ancestry, as well as a few others like German sprinkled in.)
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby JackSlack » 13 Sep 2014, 15:50

On one hand, I think economically it makes more sense for Scotland to remain part of the UK. It's a huge gamble for them, they're basically counting on their oil fields to have a lot of oil to give in the future and we just don't know if they do. Plus, secessions generally only seem to work when there's real differences, like language, etc. that divide the areas.

On the other hand, Tony Abbott favours no, so COME ON YES VOTE.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Master Gunner » 13 Sep 2014, 15:52

My father's from Glasgow, and he's pro-independence, but he also doesn't have to live in the resulting state.

Me, I think it's a very nice romantic notion, but I question the feasibility - both economically and when it comes to international politics.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Gap Filler » 13 Sep 2014, 15:55

I favour preserving the union. It'd be sad to see the Scots go if they voted Yes. Still, what would a filthy Englishman know, eh?

Aside, most of the Scottish people I know have spoken of disillusionment over the whole thing; particular qq viz how negative the debate has gotten.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Gap Filler » 13 Sep 2014, 15:58

Noting a suspiciously muted response from those with a personal stake in the debate compared to those of us who're relatively detached from it.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Elomin Sha » 13 Sep 2014, 15:59

*Sniff sniff*
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Valkyrie-Lemons » 13 Sep 2014, 16:59

I'm half-Scottish with family living in Glasgow. I hope they make the right choice and vote 'No'.

I'm worried that many Scottish people seem to think that voting for independence will transform Scotland into this wonderful egalitarian super society.

That isn't going to happen.


It's been a couple of years since I last went to Scotland, but it did not look like a vibrant economic powerhouse waiting to be unleashed. I went to East Kilbride Shopping Centre (The one with the Ice rink inside it for anyone who knows it), and most of the shops were either empty or low income shops. Even the renovated part didn't seem to be that busy either.


Just don't let pride get in the way of rational thinking. Even if Scotland does become independent from the British Union, they're just going to be a smaller cog in the European Union.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby bar room hero » 13 Sep 2014, 17:27

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby empath » 13 Sep 2014, 17:30

From what I've looked up, an independent Scotland would be veto'ed from entering the EU by Spain (which has its own secession issues, and doesn't really want a precedent), so that wouldn't even be a possibility.

Further, it seems more like the pro-independence activists don't so much object to being part of the United Kingdom bureaucratically, economically, and so forth, but really do NOT want to be part of a United Kingdom that keeps being run by English Conservatives that keep dragging the whole UK into foolish foreign wars, and so on; they're tired of having to deal with Maggie Thatcher clones...

...can't say I'd blame 'em, and while Independence would not be a surefire road to Utopia, nor would it be so disastrous as to be compared to the aphorism "cutting your nose off to spite your face". That said, it does have that kind of feel.

Of course, I'm 1/2 Wessex stock, with the rest an even mix of Irish and Guernsey...born and raised 'across the Pond' - fully a "GREAT SOUTHERN POOFTAH!", so salt packets will be distributed with these thoughts. :)
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Valkyrie-Lemons » 13 Sep 2014, 17:40

empath wrote:From what I've looked up, an independent Scotland would be veto'ed from entering the EU by Spain (which has its own secession issues, and doesn't really want a precedent), so that wouldn't even be a possibility.


Spain didn't say they would veto Scotland from becoming a member, just that they had to apply as a new member, rather than a continuing member (most likely so they could force Catalyuna to join this way and veto them).

This has it's own set of issues. I.e. Being forced to join the Euro, not inheriting the UK's nice Opt-Outs etc.

empath wrote:Further, it seems more like the pro-independence activists don't so much object to being part of the United Kingdom bureaucratically, economically, and so forth, but really do NOT want to be part of a United Kingdom that keeps being run by English Conservatives that keep dragging the whole UK into foolish foreign wars, and so on; they're tired of having to deal with Maggie Thatcher clones...


Yeah, except our last two foreign wars were under Labour, not the Tories. The last Tory war was the Falklands. Debatable if that was foolish or not.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 13 Sep 2014, 17:50

From where I'm sitting (Soviet Canuckistan), Scottish independence is, in itself, none of my business - this is for Scots to decide, period.

But...

There could be fallout that is my business. Namely, Québec. The Scottish referendum is being watched very closely in Canada by both federalists and separatists. The former Parti Québecois Premier of Québec even went so far as to visit with the Scottish First Minister a while back (before she was voted out in the last provincial election, at any rate).

The way I see it, if the Scottish "No" side wins, that doesn't really change the Canadian situation. If the Scottish "Yes" side wins, there are two possibilities depending on what happens next. If everything goes smoothly and swimmingly, that boosts the Québecois separatist movement - it would be a vindication of what they've for years been saying would follow their own "Yes" vote. But if things go badly following a Socttish "Yes" vote (as I suspect they would - the Canadian experience has shown, with hindsight, that post referendum negotiations would be, well, "ugly" is too kind a word)? That kills Québec separatism deader than it already is.

So, yes. I'm watching this thing closely, even if I don't actually feel strongly about where Scotland ends up. At least not for its own sake.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby empath » 13 Sep 2014, 20:30

dangit, I didn't mean to capitalize the 'c' in "conservatives" (probably reflex after capitalizing 'English'); you can't tell me that Tony Blair, party affiliation aside, was a left-wing liberal politician. ;)
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 13 Sep 2014, 20:36

empath wrote:you can't tell me that Tony Blair, party affiliation aside, was a left-wing liberal politician. ;)


As the joke goes...

Just what's left of the Labour Party since Blair took over?

The Tories.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby CiderMuffin » 13 Sep 2014, 22:06

I remember hearing that if Scotland goes independent they'll try to be viewed as a Scandinavian country, not sure what that's going to do for them.

Another thing is that Scotland does have oil refineries in it's waters so that could either be used by the oil companies to stop them from leaving or it could end up with Scotland taking them over and selling the oil themselves earning Scotland with some kind of wealth, though of course it would still cause problems.

According to my Scottish friend most of the pro-independence are the older population, most of the younger generations supposedly don't care, she herself stated she doesn't know why they're trying to become independent.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 14 Sep 2014, 00:55

In Wales we're very interested in the result. Some of us have even um, barged into the debate. Not sure how right that it. I suppose we share a common interest, but it's not our vote.

My thoughts:
Going to be boring if Scotland says NO. Might mean England might resume being the semi dictator in this relationship because they know NI, Wales and Scotland won't go away.

Going to be significant if Scotland leaves. A monumental event in British history. Hopefully it would be a peaceful separation.

If Scotland goes independant, it's going to be weird to have a thin sliver of NI, England and Wales being left. Scotland is a massive chunk of land to lose.

If Scotland gets independance, then Wales might consider it. Unlike Scotland though, Wales doesn't really have much industry to self-sustain itself. It has tourism, water and agriculture. Our huge money incomes like mining has shut down. We don't have the luxury of off-shore oil platforms.
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I don't know if Scotland ought to leave or not. But I hope, this has forced the Parliament in London to realise there are people who live outside of London, Manchester, Birmingham etc.

I'm worried that Scotland leaving would mean UKIP would be stronger politically. UKIP in Britain has had a stronger support in England (and lesser in Wales, and practically none-existent in Scotland [I do not know in NI]). I really would not want UKIP to ever be in power in Parliament.
In that eventuality, I would want Wales to go independent or I would want to live in Spain/Ireland/Scotland. Perhaps the corruption in Spain is less than the bigotry in UKIP.

Hypothetically speaking, would a United Celtic Nation work? Wales, Republic of Ireland and Scotland (NI seems very unlikely to ever split from England).
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Lord Chrusher » 14 Sep 2014, 02:23

Scotland leaving the UK is a rotten idea.

More to come when I am well rested and sober.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby CiderMuffin » 14 Sep 2014, 04:29

I thought there were separatist movements in Northern Ireland.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ptangmatik » 14 Sep 2014, 07:08

I'm seriously hoping Scotland votes no, though I have no say in it, it will seriously affect me.

The fact that they've got the issue to this stage (as happened in Quebec) has gotten them a lot of devolved powers, so a 'No' at this stage would be a win for them, as it was for Quebec when they got to 51% in the mid nineties, that got the Quebecois a lot of powers, which was enough to appease them.

Scotland saying 'Yes' will make a lot of other states in countries look at splitting up, though they may change their mind when they watch the British and Scottish economies tank.

There's something about war that brings people together (to, for instance, repel Julius Caesar) and united forces will often prosper (like when Germany was created, it was immediately an amazingly powerful super power in the middle of Europe, which was incredible for them, though the world mishandled that and it led to two world wars) then when peace settles in, suddenly old tribalistic behaviour settles in and we divide ourselves up again, throw up borders everywhere and bicker, only for all that to be quashed when another bigger enemy threatens to destroy us all again.

tldr: People are always better together.

ps. UK leaving the EU is also bullshit, a 'Yes' to Scottish independence might encourage Nigel Farrage who wants a 'Yes' for the UK referendum for leaving the EU, and I would happily go to great lengths to wipe the smug grin of that toad's face.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Hiramas » 14 Sep 2014, 07:26

As someone who tries to consider themselves a European Citizen (though that is quite difficult while our dear madame chancellor ruins the EU)
I hope Scotland votes NO.
They should take the british offer of more independence. We should push to unite the countries further, not give in to the right-wing forces that try to force us apart. A safe and wealthy future is only possible with a united Europe.
We need EU reform, reinforce the democratic principles, reform the monetary union to bolster the economically weak countries and then try to build a future for ourselves, for the youth of the continent.

IF scotland chooses independence, though, I hope the new state will nationalize the oil industry and instead of private, overseas companys, the profits will go into the welfare of the scottish people.

I am not familiar with the internal arguments for independence, but from a european perspective, unite is better than divide.

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