The Force Awakens.

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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 24 Dec 2015, 08:48

Saw it last night and loved it to bits. I've never seen anything previously by Abrams and have heard a lot of bad things, but I'll give him his due and say that he did his homework on this one. It didn't try anything radically new, it didn't revolutionise the franchise, but it didn't need to; it brought it back onto solid footing, giving it a platform to build on. The characters of Rey and Finn were excellently well done, and in Kylo Ren he actually managed to take the only interesting idea to come out of the prequels and executed thereon, if only to a very limited extent (which was probably for the best). It was simple, old school future fantasy brought up to 2015; exactly what a rebooted Star Wars needed, and I enjoyed it far more than any of the OT.

There, I said it.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby betsytheripper » 24 Dec 2015, 12:08

Actually, I'll agree with that. I think I enjoyed TFA more than any of the OT as well. And part of that is the experience. Long before I saw the trilogy, I had background knowledge of how they went, and I saw them the first time at age 10 or so. I remember liking them, and watching them again before seeing TFA was fun. I enjoyed them, but it should have felt like a new watching experience, having had about 15 years of gap, and it didn't, which I think made it lose some impact. TFA was wholly new, and quite good, and I enjoyed the hell out of it and want to see it again. It certainly is the Star Wars movie with the greatest emotional impact for me.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 24 Dec 2015, 12:36

I didn't feel anything when Han Solo died. I expected one of them to die. I suppose the mechanics of writing a story affected my judgement. As well as a twathole in Heroes of the Storm spoiled it for me. I guess that person has a awful existence if they go and spoil it in spite. But yeah. Maybe I didn't like Han Solo myself. I love Rey. She's my favourite Starwars character.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Booster » 24 Dec 2015, 13:56

I really hope that Rey isn't a Skywalker. I think its a lot more interesting if she isn't Luke or Leia's daughter. Just someone else who has a strong connection with the force. We have already had 6 movies about Skywalkers, its time someone else tried to save the galaxy.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby JustAName » 24 Dec 2015, 15:16

Yes, this ^
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby PlasmaCow » 24 Dec 2015, 18:19

Booster wrote:I really hope that Rey isn't a Skywalker. I think its a lot more interesting if she isn't Luke or Leia's daughter. Just someone else who has a strong connection with the force. We have already had 6 movies about Skywalkers, its time someone else tried to save the galaxy.

Yes yes yes yes yes, until a movie tells me otherwise, I will refute that fan theory. The force vision does not mean they are related.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby AdmiralMemo » 24 Dec 2015, 18:25

Avistew wrote:One thing bothered me in the movie: Finn grows a conscience and refuses to kill innocents... and then goes on to kill people he knows to be brainwashed and not responsible for their actions. People who may be a minute away from getting the realisation he did, since he apparently showed absolutely no sign until he snapped out of the brainwashing. Meaning anyone else could at any moment, if not caught and retrained.

It was enough for me to find him a bit too inconsistent of a character, although I really liked him otherwise. There were a few other things that annoyed me a little bit but all of them could be explained by "plot convenience".
There's actually a parallel to that in Star Trek: saving the Borg. Everyone knows that they were once individual beings with their own desires who are now enslaved by the hive mind. Now, for some characters, they probably believe that the individuals who are now drones are "too far gone" to be saved. That's fine, as a character, as long as it's consistent.
Then there are both Picard and Janeway. Picard knows first-hand that drones can be saved and rehabilitated. Janeway does too.
At times, they display that compassion. It works for them as characters.
Other times, there's an active battle, so drones die. That happens. That's war. You can be sad when the soldiers die in a war, but if it's kill or be killed assimilated, you've got to do what you've got to do.
But then there are times when they go and kill drones because it's convenient to. That's where it becomes inconsistent, and that's where I draw the line.

It sounds to me like Finn has a similar inconsistency of character thrust upon him by the writers.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby tbug » 24 Dec 2015, 19:35

PlasmaCow wrote:Yes yes yes yes yes, until a movie tells me otherwise, I will refute that fan theory. The force vision does not mean they are related.


I'm curious why so many of you are so very opposed to this idea. (There's nothing wrong with being opposed to it; I'm just curious.) If you consider that the movies titles "Star Wars Episode Whatever" are the story of that family, and the other movies announced are the stories of people other than that family, then this is just following the pattern.

I'm obviously not saying that slavish adherence to a pattern is a good thing. I'm just hoping for elaboration. I haven't decided what I want her connection to be, other than I feel like her family's identity is Chekhov's Gun in that since they've made a big deal of foreshadowing it then they need to follow up on it in some way or another.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby King Kool » 24 Dec 2015, 19:46

I am only opposed to it because it seems like where they're going from twelve parsecs away, and they're going to treat it like a surprise you couldn't possibly see coming.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby tbug » 24 Dec 2015, 20:14

So how would you feel about her being a Kenobi?
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby King Kool » 24 Dec 2015, 20:39

Let's bring this back into the Spoiler tags.

See, Jedis being unable to experience love really messed up the reproduction angle. In the extended universe, they actually deal with the fact that Obi-Wan had no penis and that's now he snuck into Jabba's palace, and I'm making this all up. Anyway, that would be kind of like Jessica Biel in Blade 3, but hopefully executed better. AND it would feel kind of like a dodge to say "it's not the MOST obvious thing, it's slightly different."

And why wouldn't she be on Tattooine? Did they rename Tattooine the way they renamed Mount McKinley or what? It's EXACTLY like Tattooine, but not. That's almost a metaphor for the whole movie. It's like the originals, but not. At least the prequels were distinct for being weird as hell and also generally terrible.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Elomin Sha » 25 Dec 2015, 03:03

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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Master Gunner » 26 Dec 2015, 17:46

Finally managed to see the movie. I really liked it. I marathoned the Original Trilogy last night, and I think it really holds up to it (keeping in mind the not insignificant changes in cinema over the last 40 years). In many ways its retelling the same story - it's certainly hitting most of the same beats and has very specific parallels to ANH and the OT in general, but it does that to re-introduce us to the setting, while also showing us where they'd like to take the series going forward.

That said, I'm still a bit apprehensive about where Episode VIII will take us, as I said pretty much the same thing about the Star Trek reboot being a nice introduction into the "new Star Trek universe" even if it fell flat in other areas of being a Trek movie...but then it followed up with Into Darkness.



On the topic of Rey's lineage she's certainly the one to inherit Luke's legacy, but given the nature of Skywalker genealogy I think it would be thematically fitting for to not be Luke's kid. However that doesn't preclude her from being related to other characters we've seen before - Qui-Gon would be far more the type than Obi-Wan to have had a child outside the rules of the Order; or what has Wedge being up to since RotJ?
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Elomin Sha » 26 Dec 2015, 18:04

Master Gunner wrote: or what has Wedge being up to since RotJ?

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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Master Gunner » 26 Dec 2015, 19:24

Unrelated to the above, but on the topic of Rey and Luke: Some of the silly complaints over Rey's "Mary Sue-ness" are about how she seems a lot more capable in the Force than Luke was in ANH or even Empire, but that actually does make a bit of sense.

Luke was raised in a fairly secure environment, with friends and family. His Aunt and Uncle also purposefully suppressed any interest or knowledge in Jedi and the Force, as they were always afraid of him turning into his father. As a result, the only chance he really had to connect with the Force was while flying his T-16 - so his Force abilities emerge first and foremost while piloting, and it takes considerable time for him to learn what his connection to the Force actually means, and to overcome his own mental blocks.

Rey, on the other hand, seems to have been by herself for a very long time, struggling for survival. Her life may have offered countless opportunities for the Force to flow through her, giving her a closer connection than Luke had at that age despite never realizing it. If anything, her story more closely parallels Anakin's than Luke's. So combined with Han telling her that all the legends she's heard are true, her own lack of mental blocks compared to Luke's, and Kylo Ren poking around inside her head, she ends up being able to reach out and use the Force earlier and more directly than Luke.

On the other hand, if you go by past Jedi teachings, she's also at great risk of falling to the temptation of the Dark Side if she keeps pushing the limits of her power. So a rather good thing she ran into Luke when she did.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 27 Dec 2015, 07:49

Rey certainly seems very emotive as a character.
I found it interesting how she screams Fin's name when he is taken and chases after him. Channeling Anakin here?

Yeah, good job she found Luke, because her compassion would have lead her into the darkside (which is interesting concept, since traditionally compassion is a good virtue in our universe, but in Starwars, the light side is being sociopathic.)
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Bebop Man » 27 Dec 2015, 10:02

Rey's one trait is besting everyone - Poe, Han, Chewie, Finn, Kylo - and being better at everything.

Such a boring character.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Master Gunner » 27 Dec 2015, 11:39

I disagree.

Granted, not much was actually done with her character in this film beyond setting her up for the next two - but that's not much different than Luke in A New Hope.

As for besting everyone, well...Rule #1 in Star Wars: The Force is OP.

However, even with the Force I don't think she was really necessarily besting everyone. Poe was downing enough Tie Fighters to classify him as a double-ace by Legends EU standards in a single engagement, while simultaneously sharp-shooting ground targets. Luke or Anakin would have being hard pressed to match that even in Legends EU, much less Rey from what we saw in the film.

Her antics with the Falcon on Jakka and running through the interior of a Super Star Destroyer were certainly impressive, but how does that stack up against Lando taking the Falcon through the Death Star II's superstructure, Han out-maneuvering the Emperor's finest in the asteroid field (or Han even being able to approach the first Death Star while under fire), or Luke taking the impossible shot against the first Death Star blind?

With a blaster, she seems preternaturally skilled after she gets started, but in the same sequence we have Han shooting storm troopers he isn't even looking at, and Chewie certainly wasn't any slouch either - he takes several sharpshooter shots while barely aiming in a near-pitch-black environment.

Between her and Finn, well, Finn takes up both the Tie Fighter's and the Falcon's turrets rather quickly, despite no prior experience or training on anything bigger than a blaster. In the Lightsaber fight against Kylo, Rey doesn't do any better than Finn does at first - until she lets the Force flow through her, at which point her technique suddenly starts mimicking Anakin's signature moves from the prequels...so I'm going to call shenanigans on that one.

So yeah, Rey's OP, but so is every named character in Star Wars. I don't think she actually performed better than the others, just more focus was put on her abilities in the film.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 27 Dec 2015, 12:23

I actually disagree with both arguments, just to be a spanner in the works: I actually agree with Bebop that (although it didn't particularly occur to me at the time) Rey does basically kick everyone else's arse throughout despite little to no training or experience. However, I disagree that this makes her a boring character. 'The competent man' is a trope as old as literature itself and has given us more varied characters than I care to name, and although it is a trope that is frequently used lazily that is no reason (to my mind) to dismiss the character as boring. The reason that I like Rey as a character is simply because she comes across as a very likeable, very real person, the kind of person I'd like to hang out with. The fact that she is in a state of arrested development to some degree, both with her childlike naivete and faintly idiotic ties to home to me enhances this sense of realistic character (and, no doubt, makes her more relatable to the armies of children who are the designated cash cows of this generation of Star Wars). I have considered the possibility that I like her as a character purely because she is a woman, and maybe having a competent, non-sexual hero of the classic type being a girl is different enough for me to not find her boring, at least for now.

That's my view, at any rate.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Master Gunner » 27 Dec 2015, 12:47

On an unrelated topic, did anyone else think that this movie had more technobabble in it than the entire Original Trilogy (and probably prequel trilogy) combined?

Of course that would be the one thing JJ took away from Star Trek.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Avistew » 28 Dec 2015, 00:21

Well, it's not like Rey is perfect. She's the one who accidentally released whatever those were called by taking out the wrong fuse despite being a self-proclaimed expert who should have known which part to tinker with. I was very happy to see her make that mistake rather than, say, Finn, because I do think it balances her out more, even if in the end it was also an excuse to show her accidentally using the force and saving Finn.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 28 Dec 2015, 08:10

No one seems to care about Fin's parents.
Mainly because there have only been two characters who have black skin in the films and we probably don't care in the same extent as Rey's parents.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby Master Gunner » 28 Dec 2015, 09:47

Rey waiting for her parents to return is an explicit part of her character that's focused on several times in the movie. Finn brings up his (lack of) parentage once, and largely seems to have moved passed it. Going from that, Rey's parentage is almost certainly going to come up as a plot point in the next two films, while there's no indication that Finn's is any more relevant to the plot than Han's or Poe's - though I'm sure it will be covered extensively in the new EU.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby RoboNixon » 29 Dec 2015, 05:29

Definitely enjoyed it more on a 2nd viewing. The aggressive fan service wasn't as annoying, and I felt Harrison Ford's performance was very good.
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Re: The Force Awakens.

Postby MotorWaffle » 03 Jan 2016, 15:47

Master Gunner wrote:Unrelated to the above, but on the topic of Rey and Luke: Some of the silly complaints over Rey's "Mary Sue-ness" are about how she seems a lot more capable in the Force than Luke was in ANH or even Empire, but that actually does make a bit of sense.

Luke was raised in a fairly secure environment, with friends and family. His Aunt and Uncle also purposefully suppressed any interest or knowledge in Jedi and the Force, as they were always afraid of him turning into his father. As a result, the only chance he really had to connect with the Force was while flying his T-16 - so his Force abilities emerge first and foremost while piloting, and it takes considerable time for him to learn what his connection to the Force actually means, and to overcome his own mental blocks.

Rey, on the other hand, seems to have been by herself for a very long time, struggling for survival. Her life may have offered countless opportunities for the Force to flow through her, giving her a closer connection than Luke had at that age despite never realizing it. If anything, her story more closely parallels Anakin's than Luke's. So combined with Han telling her that all the legends she's heard are true, her own lack of mental blocks compared to Luke's, and Kylo Ren poking around inside her head, she ends up being able to reach out and use the Force earlier and more directly than Luke.

On the other hand, if you go by past Jedi teachings, she's also at great risk of falling to the temptation of the Dark Side if she keeps pushing the limits of her power. So a rather good thing she ran into Luke when she did.



Eh...I don't buy that. I don't buy that there's a correlation between her upbringing and sudden force awareness. Anakin didn't show explicit force powers beyond generally better reflexes due to some barely understood power of precognition. If she had that I'd have no issues, or even if she had to force pull something out of pure necessity but I definitely don't think she ought to be able to pull Jedi Mind tricks Luke didn't do until movie three, and that she only sorta knew existed from legend, and she should definitely not immediately outclass someone who has had years of training, especially in lightsaber combat, a weapon she had touched exactly once before that fight. I also don't buy that someone who has been in the same region of the same planet since childhood is a Han Solo level spaceship pilot. The mechanical skill thing I thought was totally justified, because she's spent her life salvaging the parts, but I'm not convinced that all her skills were justified.

I also don't get why a new order rising from the Empire is suddenly so overwhelmingly powerful so quickly, or why the rebels need to be considered "rebels" when there's a fully-functioning republic government around backing them. It really undermined the resolution at the end of the original trilogy.

That said, I liked the movie a lot, but the complaints of Rey being almost too good at everything aren't entirely "silly" or unjustified.

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