Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Darkflame » 13 Feb 2016, 16:48

Indeed.

to actually admit that yes, maybe there is a problem in the amount of refugees/asylum-seekers/hand-me-the-free-money-seekers entering the EU and that yes, maybe something should be done in the way these are handled.


Its certainly true that any big migration of people will bring a lot of problems, however in this case the "something should be done" is quite simple. They should be treated better - as should anyone fleeing from terrorism.
The current refugee crises is people that are running fromnot running too- its got nothing to do with "free money".

That said;
https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get

In the UK at least asylum seekers get very little. Who would travel around the world - literally risking your life - for 36GBP a week ?

Also immigrants once settled are less likely to claim benefits then native British citizens;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11255425/How-much-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html

In short; don't believe some of the rhetoric. While settling any group of people brings problems, in terms of benefits/help, immigrants are a absolute tiny quantity of spending - they arnt a drain on a country.

, they all have no idea what it's ACTUALLY like to be a normal citizen in the US, they ALL represent various conglomerates, wealthy backers and large corporations.


Your probably right with that first part - but it still should be pointed out Bernie Sanders is getting popular precisely because he doesn't really have the backing of big conglomerates.
Heres a list of his top donations;
https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000528&
Biggest donation is from Google there (aka Alphabeta) at $98,000.

Now lets compare that to Clintons;
https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contrib.php?id=N00000019&

Note: not just the groups but the scale of the numbers there. Makes that 98k from google seem peanuts.
Scary eh?
You can, of course, look up similar figures for everyone else to get a "flavor" of their sponsors.

This doesn't make any candidate good or bad by itself, but in terms of "representing the people" Sanders is sticking out like a sore thumb in terms of his financing.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 14 Feb 2016, 11:25

Its certainly true that any big migration of people will bring a lot of problems, however in this case the "something should be done" is quite simple. They should be treated better - as should anyone fleeing from terrorism.
The current refugee crises is people that are running fromnot running too- its got nothing to do with "free money".

In the UK at least asylum seekers get very little. Who would travel around the world - literally risking your life - for 36GBP a week ?
36 GBP a week and you don't even have to do anything for it? Thats a lot more than most of these people receive for a week hard work. They don't have any means of judging the expenses of actually living in the UK, so to them 36 GBP is a goldmine.

Unfortunately that is also simply not true if we look at the numbers and origins of those moving through europe right now. Unfortunately I cant find the chart right now, but for instance Syria isn't even in the top5 of origin countries for those entering the Netherlands (and probably the same for the UK) And its even less true if we look at WHERE they are running TO. Even politicians in the Netherlands have admitted that the majority of "refugees" arriving in the Netherlands are in fact NOT from war-torn countries. A lot of them are even from relatively safe countries. Their real origin is impossible to track as "official" Syrian passports are freely available on the market in all of the north african embarkation ports. To get here they pass either a dangerous boat ride into Italy, then France or Germany and THEN the Netherlands. OR they pass through Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Slovenia, Austria and Germany. They are safe once they reach Italy or Turkey, yet they keep on travelling. Many of them freely admit they come here simply because they expect to be taken care of, get to bring their family over and be assured of all sorts of medical care (for free).

Extensive research in the Netherlands HAS shown that migrants from African countries are about 60 to 80% more likely to stay dependent on welfare benefits. They are more likely to end up in the criminal justice system for violent crimes and theft (about 3 times as likely even).

There are PLENTY of problems with accepting this amount of people into the nation. If they were TRULY refugees (AGAIN, most of them are NOT) and they planned on returning once conditions are safe then sure, we should do our best to give them a safe place to stay. But those that are looking to build a new life in the west more often than not simply do not have the means to ever truly support themselves and make any sort of contribution to society. They are very likely going to be a huge drain on society and on the welfare system.

Yes, we should treat these people as best we can but do not even for a second think the majority are here because they fled a warzone. The vast majority of them are relatively young males. If you truly fled from a war zone, would you leave your wife and children behind to travel for months for the slim chance you might be able to bring them over later? Ofcourse not, you would take them with you.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 14 Feb 2016, 14:49

Dutch guy wrote:Extensive research in the Netherlands HAS shown that migrants from African countries are about 60 to 80% more likely to stay dependent on welfare benefits. They are more likely to end up in the criminal justice system for violent crimes and theft (about 3 times as likely even).

This is exactly the opposite oh what I've read of immigrants into the US (though people seem to believe the same, regardless). They are less likely than the local population to engage in crime, and contribute far more economically.

So I'm going to need a citation on that (which shouldn't be so difficult, since the research has apparently been 'extensive').
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 14 Feb 2016, 15:14

The US, indeed. The situation in the US is FAR different from that in Europe. Mostly exactly because of much stricter immigration laws in terms of actually being legalized to work and live in the country.

The reports I have are in Dutch unfortunately. But both the 2012 year report on integration by the governments Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) and the 2013 report from the Institute for social research state the same thing. Workforce participation for migrants is well below that of the average for "natural born" (I know that's not the right term, I can't think of the translation for the Dutch autochtoon) citizens
2012 - http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/A1B765EE ... b61pub.pdf

2013 - summary in english: http://www.scp.nl/english/dsresource?ob ... 2&type=org
full report in dutch: http://www.scp.nl/dsresource?objectid=36326&type=org


As for the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s-2010.pdf
this report seems to indicate blacks are 3 times more likely to be arrested for a crime (and not just unjustly and that high a level means its not just a core group of delinquents)

From Switzerland: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/sta ... y/27784193

I had similar reports from the CBS about crime levels but either I fail at making bookmarks or they moved it on their site and I am currently unable to retrieve them.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 14 Feb 2016, 17:28

Interesting. I'd be curious to know the reason for the difference (and am a little dubious of the UK report - the rate at which a group of people are arrested for a crime does not necessarily indicate the rate of participation in crime unless we disentangle race/class/location, which you really can't)

A lack of workforce participation and higher criminality (is that the word?) would seem to indicate a lack of integration, but I would be very interested to know how attitudes towards immigrants by the local population contribute to integration. It seem logical to assume that a hostile local populace would make integration more difficult, and that a lack of integration would contribute to a hostile populace, forming a vicious cycle.

If the problem is framed as "Immigrants are coming here and not integrating", I think I'd prefer those politicians/parties interested in solving the "not integrating" part, than the "coming here" part.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby AdmiralMemo » 14 Feb 2016, 18:50

korvys wrote:If the problem is framed as "Immigrants are coming here and not integrating", I think I'd prefer those politicians/parties interested in solving the "not integrating" part, than the "coming here" part.
This is my whole thing, too, in the US. I have zero problem with immigrants and immigration. But I expect the immigrants to contribute to this society as (new) Americans, and if they're not doing that, then I have a problem.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Duckay » 14 Feb 2016, 19:00

I have a couple of problems with that statement. First of all, how do you define "contributing as Americans"? It seems as though that is a statement that could be interpreted in a vast number of ways, many of them much more reasonable than others.

The second question is, can we look at the reasons why they may not be "contributing as Americans"? Most obviously, are they being discriminated against, prevented from doing certain things, treated badly?
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 14 Feb 2016, 19:39

Integrating legally, integrating economically, and integrating with regard to language, sure. But so many seem to want to limit this to culturally as well, as if most western countries aren't culturally diverse anyway, and the local "culture" has more value than any other.

If you can speak the language well enough to communicate, you obey the laws, and you want to work, you're welcome as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby AdmiralMemo » 14 Feb 2016, 20:47

Essentially what korvys said. I'd prefer culturally as well, but I know that's a tougher thing to do, and is just personal preference. I don't let personal preference dictate what I think politically, etc.

Like, for example, it'd be my personal preference if everyone would stop smoking and stop drinking alcohol. But I'm not going to sit here and rally for the criminalization of these things or anything. As long as their personal preference is not negatively harming anyone else (second-hand smoke, drunk driving, etc.), then they can go ahead and do it, somewhere away from me.

So, while it'd be my personal preference that immigrants integrate culturally, I'm not going to make it something I'd require. Language, economy, and legality are pretty required in my book, though.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 15 Feb 2016, 08:45

korvys wrote:A lack of workforce participation and higher criminality (is that the word?) would seem to indicate a lack of integration, but I would be very interested to know how attitudes towards immigrants by the local population contribute to integration. It seem logical to assume that a hostile local populace would make integration more difficult, and that a lack of integration would contribute to a hostile populace, forming a vicious cycle.

If the problem is framed as "Immigrants are coming here and not integrating", I think I'd prefer those politicians/parties interested in solving the "not integrating" part, than the "coming here" part.


I think the general Dutch populace has for a long time been very accepting of migrants, but "we" do expect the migrant to atleast TRY to adapt a bit to our culture and our way of thinking.
The problem is that a large portion of the current migrant flow doesn't WANT to integrate. We've had quite large immigration into the Netherlands before, but for the most part those people have all integrated quite well. It's specifically the African and middle-eastern (predominantly muslim) immigrants that seem to resist integration. They prefer to keep to themselves and not have contact with anyone else. There are few problems with the migrants from Asia, Indonesia, Suriname (though are slightly more criminal as a group, but this can be somewhat explained through background and social standing) and India for instance. Right now (especially in the large cities) there seem to be muslim enclaves forming with their own street patrols and their own laws where official law enforcement can no longer properly perform their duties. These people are actively seeking separation from "indigenous" Dutch population instead of seeking integration. This wouldn't be so bad if it was just a few diehards, but (due to economic effects) these people tend to cluster together in certain neighbourhoods and then influence each other to such a degree that integration of even the more open minded individuals in hindered.

Reports of sexual intimidation and violence against women are increasing all over the country and unfortunately the "see, its another lightly colored person again" view that has started sneaking into the minds of many people here is getting confirmed more than it is getting debunked. (And unfortunately the numbers seem to support this explanation as well).



Please don't get me wrong. I think we should be helping refugees of any war, no matter their race, religion or sexual orientation. But when I hear reports of gays and christians being afraid of their lives in the Dutch migrant centers because of intimidation and violence by muslims or I hear the news about the massive and coordinated sexual assault on women on new years in several German cities I can't help but feel we should be helping the gays, Christians and women from these areas FIRST and sending anybody who is found guilty of these assaults back on the first bus to their home country. No matter if they came from a warzone or not.

And yes, I freely admit I might be just ever so slightly racist. My political views are certainly more right-leaning than most current mainstream political parties. I get angry however when some people try to frame me as a "New Nazi" who wants to mass-exterminate all Muslims. I'm not and I certainly don't, anyone is welcome to any religion they want as long as they don't bother anyone else with it.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 15 Feb 2016, 11:12

Dutch guy wrote:
korvys wrote:A lack of workforce participation and higher criminality (is that the word?) would seem to indicate a lack of integration, but I would be very interested to know how attitudes towards immigrants by the local population contribute to integration. It seem logical to assume that a hostile local populace would make integration more difficult, and that a lack of integration would contribute to a hostile populace, forming a vicious cycle.

If the problem is framed as "Immigrants are coming here and not integrating", I think I'd prefer those politicians/parties interested in solving the "not integrating" part, than the "coming here" part.


I think the general Dutch populace has for a long time been very accepting of migrants, but "we" do expect the migrant to atleast TRY to adapt a bit to our culture and our way of thinking.
The problem is that a large portion of the current migrant flow doesn't WANT to integrate. We've had quite large immigration into the Netherlands before, but for the most part those people have all integrated quite well. It's specifically the African and middle-eastern (predominantly muslim) immigrants that seem to resist integration. They prefer to keep to themselves and not have contact with anyone else. There are few problems with the migrants from Asia, Indonesia, Suriname (though are slightly more criminal as a group, but this can be somewhat explained through background and social standing) and India for instance. Right now (especially in the large cities) there seem to be muslim enclaves forming with their own street patrols and their own laws where official law enforcement can no longer properly perform their duties. These people are actively seeking separation from "indigenous" Dutch population instead of seeking integration. This wouldn't be so bad if it was just a few diehards, but (due to economic effects) these people tend to cluster together in certain neighbourhoods and then influence each other to such a degree that integration of even the more open minded individuals in hindered.

Reports of sexual intimidation and violence against women are increasing all over the country and unfortunately the "see, its another lightly colored person again" view that has started sneaking into the minds of many people here is getting confirmed more than it is getting debunked. (And unfortunately the numbers seem to support this explanation as well).



Please don't get me wrong. I think we should be helping refugees of any war, no matter their race, religion or sexual orientation. But when I hear reports of gays and christians being afraid of their lives in the Dutch migrant centers because of intimidation and violence by muslims or I hear the news about the massive and coordinated sexual assault on women on new years in several German cities I can't help but feel we should be helping the gays, Christians and women from these areas FIRST and sending anybody who is found guilty of these assaults back on the first bus to their home country. No matter if they came from a warzone or not.

And yes, I freely admit I might be just ever so slightly racist. My political views are certainly more right-leaning than most current mainstream political parties. I get angry however when some people try to frame me as a "New Nazi" who wants to mass-exterminate all Muslims. I'm not and I certainly don't, anyone is welcome to any religion they want as long as they don't bother anyone else with it.


Actually, Dutch Guy, I think yours is an entirely valid and very interesting viewpoint. A friend of mine (who, I should probably admit at this point, is a white Afrikaaner South African, albeit one considered a raging liberal in his home country) once told me he was of the opinion that he thought it likely multiculturalism would not turn out to be long-term successful- not because of any racial barrier, but because of cultural ones. A culture that puts very rigid restrictions on the place of women, for example, does not in his view mix well with one that is more free-thinking. Multiracialism and immigration are frequently very successful, but in his view this was because they are willing to accept and absorb their new culture into their own.

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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Elomin Sha » 27 Feb 2016, 13:41

I'd like to think Trump is the best prankster in the world. If he's elected he starts putting out all the same policies as the Democrats, so the Republicans have no way to muck them up.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Forecedreject » 04 Mar 2016, 01:49

I don't normally keep up with stuff like the primaries but this year I'm making an exception, and it's terrifying me.

There's still lots of sentiment of Trump not being able to make it to office. But him even being a viable candidate was considered an unlikelihood to begin with months ago. Now I'm watching him inch forward ahead of the other republican candidates.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 04 Mar 2016, 10:09

The way I see it now the end result will be Trump v. Clinton. And Trump just gets trounced in the actual election.

(Also, ffs US, will you finally fix your damn electoral system? This thing you have now is just too broken to even be considered democracy)
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Hekla » 04 Mar 2016, 12:15

To be honest, I'd be much more terrified if I didn't have some small glimmer of hope in this election cycle. As it is, I'm just seeing the Republican party self-destruct in the background. Having said that, there's every chance in the world that that destruction reaches us all after November.

But, back to that glimmer of hope. When Bernie Sanders announced he was running back last Spring, I was ecstatic. I always saw him as one of the few politicians in the US who dares to suggest that there are fundamental flaws in the system and that we should look to other countries not in despair at the situation, but to learn from them. Aside from campaign finance and the more fundamental issues, I'm mostly focused on healthcare as something that the US has gotten disastrously wrong and desperately needs to be fixed. He probably wouldn't be able to fix the thing, but he will come in hoping to make it a hell of a lot better.

So I've made the effort. I drove the four and a half hours to the US border, and canvassed in a small town in Maine. This is the Obama excitement multiplied by ten. I still don't think he'll win, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try and make a difference, and he might just be able to make it if enough people do the same.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby MetricFurlong » 04 Mar 2016, 15:51

Dutch guy wrote:The way I see it now the end result will be Trump v. Clinton. And Trump just gets trounced in the actual election.

Thing is, everyone was saying Trump would get trounced during the pre--presidential-election election back when it started. Now it's looking like he's going to win that.

I don't think we can afford to get complacent about this. Although there's not a huge amount us non-USAland types can do about it.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 05 Mar 2016, 12:27

MetricFurlong wrote:
Dutch guy wrote:The way I see it now the end result will be Trump v. Clinton. And Trump just gets trounced in the actual election.

Thing is, everyone was saying Trump would get trounced during the pre--presidential-election election back when it started. Now it's looking like he's going to win that.

I don't think we can afford to get complacent about this. Although there's not a huge amount us non-USAland types can do about it.


I've always thought Trump would go very far or get the nomination in the primaries. Most of this comes down to being the most vocal and the most well known. Doesn't really matter if you are RIGHT. Trump had all of that and the money to piss away on a massive campaign. When it comes time for the actual presidential elections however most voters will be looking at actual policy. And that is when things start falling apart for Trump.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Rikadyn » 06 Mar 2016, 08:20

Dutch guy wrote:The way I see it now the end result will be Trump v. Clinton. And Trump just gets trounced in the actual election.

(Also, ffs US, will you finally fix your damn electoral system? This thing you have now is just too broken to even be considered democracy)



It's actually split on the Trump v. Clinton. You'd think it would be a given the dem would win, but a lot of those who support Sanders (me included) are either going to vote 3rd party, vote trump, or not vote all together so the support for Clinton in the main event will not necessarily be there.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Jamfalcon » 06 Mar 2016, 09:58

(The following isn't intended directly at you, but at the whole "if it's not Bernie, it's nobody/Trump" idea.)

And see, that mentality is part of why the whole "primaries" system seems really weird to me as an outsider. Obviously I'm just some guy from another country who doesn't follow everything that happens in American politics, and I'm not trying to tell you how to vote. But it seems like giving the public control of not only who's elected, but who even is in the race for president, just hurts the final election.

Here, a party will select its own leader internally. I'll admit, I'm not 100% sure on how big the pool deciding that is, but it certainly isn't a huge national election like you guys have. So when I follow those discussions, in the end I won't choose who the candidates are. Even if someone becomes a party leader and isn't my first choice, I don't have that sense of "well I didn't vote for them, I wanted the other one!" Instead it's more, okay, this person isn't my first choice, but I'm still going to vote for their party because on the whole, I disagree a lot more with what the other party(s) are saying and promising.

I don't know if that all makes sense, but I guess to me, it's weird to see your country's elections drag on for literally years, to the point where people get so entrenched in their opinions that they won't vote for a person who's more or less "on their side" of the spectrum, and would instead vote for someone completely opposed to their beliefs (and perhaps common sense) purely out if spite that the rest of the country didn't pick their favourite for the final race. And not voting is just as bad. It's still one less person supporting the candidate who, while maybe not perfect, is certainly the less frightening option.

Anyway, those are just the thoughts of a foreigner who visits your country on a monthly basis and is getting more and more terrified that a man who promises to enact despicable policies and commit war crimes will get in because people are so spiteful that their #1 didn't make it that they'll punish the whole world. But like I say, vote how you want. It is a free country, I hear.

(Edited to fix a ton of typos because this was originally posted from my phone. Sorry if I missed any!)
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 06 Mar 2016, 14:35

Rikadyn wrote:are either going to vote 3rd party, vote trump, or not vote all together so the support for Clinton in the main event will not necessarily be there.


And this is exactly the reason why the US voting system is so broken. (Not directed at you personally. I just don't understand how the US as a whole hasn't broken out in rebellion against this system a long time ago.)
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Kronopticon » 06 Mar 2016, 15:05

I find this completely strange how things have gotten this far... with all the strange and frankly hateful comments and quotes he has brought on everyone. Im shocked moreso at this point by this article that went up yesterday. ->"Trump Supporters Pledge"<-

Its like he, and apparently every American there is blind to logic and the connotations implied by all this.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 06 Mar 2016, 16:49

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Oops, how did that image get there. That doesn't have anything to do with the US elections. My mistake. Guess I'll leave there anyway.
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Rikadyn
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Rikadyn » 06 Mar 2016, 18:37

Dutch guy wrote:
Rikadyn wrote:are either going to vote 3rd party, vote trump, or not vote all together so the support for Clinton in the main event will not necessarily be there.


And this is exactly the reason why the US voting system is so broken. (Not directed at you personally. I just don't understand how the US as a whole hasn't broken out in rebellion against this system a long time ago.)




Hillary supported DOMA(defense of marriage, man-woman etc) till it became politically expediant and was already decided by the supreme court. She is pro-war, pro-corporation, anti-single payer healthcare, anti-drug, pro-"tough on crime" so ultimately she is the same as a moderate republican.

Trump, while he is spewing very vile rhetoric, is actually in places to the left of Hillary on policy (war,healthcare). Also for the most part until a few years ago was a democrat.

This is the beginning of that rebellion. We have 2 parties, one who didn't think that the outsider would draw as much support as he has, and I'm not totally sure he's not playing it up to draw in the outside to his side before screaming towards center. Then we have the other party which annointed their choice through behind the scenes scheming and buying of support through corporate money before the primaries even began. Problem is, millenials aren't as willing to accept the status quo as the older generations are.

Personally, I am already taking a step to the right in supporting Sanders, I'll be damned if I am willing to support someone who completely goes against my views and concerns.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 06 Mar 2016, 20:16

Personally, as much as I dislike the status quo, I'd take the status quo over the guy who makes up whatever lies he thinks will get him votes.
Last edited by korvys on 06 Mar 2016, 20:21, edited 2 times in total.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Rikadyn » 06 Mar 2016, 20:20

korvys wrote:Personally, as much as I dislike the status quo, I'd take the status quo over the guy who makes up whatever lies he thinks will get him votes.


but that is the status quo for a politician...
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