Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 06 Mar 2016, 20:21

Not vagueness, not mind changing, not failing to do what was promised due to opposition, just straight up lies. Not even plausibly deniable lies.

"I saw thousands of Muslims cheering on 9/11"
No, you didn't. That didn't happen. You are lying because you will literally say anything you think will win votes. Fuck you.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Rikadyn » 07 Mar 2016, 14:57

the heart knows no greater tragedy than a breath that begins in love and ends in grief...
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Forecedreject » 08 Mar 2016, 01:19

I consider myself apolitical, but I'm also a nihilist, which tends to make me sympathize less with certain ideologies.

That being said, I'm not exactly excited about Cruz either, but I feel like his support was more or less expected. Trump still worries me more, or more accurately his large support worries me. Even if Trump can't enact his proposed policies or ends up compromising towards the middle, I'm not so certain that's what his supporters are counting on. If people are voting for his extremist persona then something very ugly is brewing beneath the surface. Trump himself might not end up having much power or extremist push but his momentum reflects something frightening about the desires and attitudes within the country.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Tinasaur » 08 Mar 2016, 13:16

Maybe it's old news by now but if you haven't seen Last Week Tonight from last sunday, here's the video about Donald Trump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Defenestar » 09 Mar 2016, 01:43

Orange Hitler is a disaster. His business track record is a long line of smoking ruins, he inherited a large fortune and has managed to turn it in to a smaller fortune despite the American economy giving an overwhelming advantage to the wealthy, and he appears to have completely rejected truth on a conceptual level.

His performance in this election cycle is a natural consequence of the Tea Party astroturf movement, which was started by the Republicans in an attempt to focus anti-intellectual xenophobes against Barry O. It has since spiraled wildly out of control as a result of the hostility toward things like compromise or trying to understand reality.

If he loses the nomination because none of the people who do not already support him would trust him with anything sharper than a tennis ball, then he'll likely run independent. If he does win, then the older core of the Republican party, which is still repugnant but at least capable of rational thought, will probably field a candidate against him in the certainty that this will hand the presidency to the Democrats but unwilling to watch their own party shoved up its own backside.


Oh, and any country running near or below the replacement rate of population growth should respond to refugees by shouting 'Mine!' and grabbing as many as it can carry. After a brief adjustment period, immigrants of any kind are largely an economic benefit to their new country.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 15 Mar 2016, 07:51

In Britain, "trump" is a sound that is made when a brass instrument is played or when someone farts. Therefore, this is what British people see when Americans talk about current politics:

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Yes, I did edit my Chrome browser to replace the word trump with fart.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Forecedreject » 21 Mar 2016, 03:11

After doing some casual observations over the past few weeks, I've learned that my greatest fear right now isn't Trump. It's the political atmosphere.

There seems to be alot of hostility, from all sides.Alot more hostile than usual. I'm starting to consider what Memo said at the beginning of this thread rather seriously. There's a dangerous level of polarization going around the country. Americans are so charged in their camps that they're foaming at the mouth and ready to turn into each other.

Our current age of media isn't helping either. Highlighting all the sensational hypercharged moments and whipping people into a frenzy. Whether Trump wins or loses, I'm feeling anxious about the next 4-8 years.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby empath » 21 Mar 2016, 07:06

Agreed.

Trump being a viable candidate with his 'say whatever self-contradictory drivel grabs attention' marketing strategy is just a symptom of just what Forecedeject and Memo are pointing out...
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Psyclone » 21 Mar 2016, 22:20

You can absolutely see this in the current standoff about the new supreme court nominee, Merrick Garland. Even Chief Justice Roberts has said that supreme court confirmations need to be above politics and merely about qualifications, but you've got republican senators stonewalling a very centrist nominee. The idea that everything has to be along party lines might result in America having an 8-member supreme court for the next year.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby AdmiralMemo » 22 Mar 2016, 02:00

Not saying it's right to do from either side, but the Democrats did the same thing back during the Bush administration. Can you really blame the Republicans for thinking turnabout is fair game?
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Lord Chrusher » 22 Mar 2016, 02:02

Blocking the supreme court nominee is quite risky. If Clinton, much less Saunders, wins the election, you would expect a much more liberal nominee. If Trump wins, who knows what sort of justice he would nominate.

There is also the risk the obstruction affects marginal senate races.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Hekla » 22 Mar 2016, 12:39

I'd suggest that even in comparison to the Democratic Party in the latter years of Bush's term, blocking a Supreme Court Nominee without a hearing for so long is quite shocking.

That being said, I can see why the conservative Right are doing this. Scalia was probably the most hated Supreme Court justice among leftists, and the most loved on the Right. His replacement is neutral to good for the Democratic party, and just bad for the Republicans.

It would be a bit like if Ruth Bader Ginsburg died at the end of a Republican president's term - it threatens to change the court in a fundamental way in favour of one of the two parties.

Also, the US judicial system is stupidly political. It hasn't always been this way, and it's crazy that the arm of the government that is supposed to review and clarify the law is such a bipartisan issue. I guess I was spoiled coming from the UK where we had to put up with a part of the House of Lords making judicial decisions until we quite recently got a Supreme Court of our own.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Psyclone » 22 Mar 2016, 14:38

AdmiralMemo wrote:Not saying it's right to do from either side, but the Democrats did the same thing back during the Bush administration. Can you really blame the Republicans for thinking turnabout is fair game?


Oh absolutely, the democrats aren't innocent in this regard. It is worth noting that Alito did get confirmation, though, and the democratic effort was only a filibuster supported by some democrats, nothing like this full-party blockade.

I'd also be interested, if they don't confirm Garland and Clinton or Sanders wins the election, whether they would actually go for a more leftist nominee. I would think that Clinton or Sanders nominating another relatively neutral option would signal a willingness to work with a (potentially) republican-controlled senate, which would go at least a little ways in trying to bridge this ridiculous party divide.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby AdmiralMemo » 23 Mar 2016, 05:29

Forecedreject wrote:After doing some casual observations over the past few weeks, I've learned that my greatest fear right now isn't Trump. It's the political atmosphere.

There seems to be alot of hostility, from all sides. A lot more hostile than usual. I'm starting to consider what Memo said at the beginning of this thread rather seriously. There's a dangerous level of polarization going around the country. Americans are so charged in their camps that they're foaming at the mouth and ready to turn into each other.

Our current age of media isn't helping either. Highlighting all the sensational hypercharged moments and whipping people into a frenzy. Whether Trump wins or loses, I'm feeling anxious about the next 4-8 years.
empath wrote:Agreed.

Trump being a viable candidate with his 'say whatever self-contradictory drivel grabs attention' marketing strategy is just a symptom of just what Forecedeject and Memo are pointing out...
I could say "Nyeh nyeh nyeh... Told ya so..." *sticks thumbs in ears, sticks out tongue, and waggles fingers*

I could say that if the situation weren't so serious and grim. :-(

In all honesty, the situation we're seeing today would've happened 8 or 12 years ago if 9/11 hadn't occurred. The parties were ready to turn on each other in 2000. 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan gave them an external foe to focus on. If you were for the war, the external foe was "those dang Arabs who come over here to blow up our buildings!" If you were against the war, the external foe was the fact that we were at war itself. But now that the war is over, at least in the public's mind, the parties have used their stockpiled political energy and are turning on each other again.

And just as I'm typing that, I realized something... Maybe America is so bad off that we need some sort of external target to focus upon to stop ourselves from infighting. For a good 40-odd years, we had the threat of "The Commies!" to focus on. When that threat disintegrated in the early 90s, we had the First Gulf War to occupy us. When that was over, we had a few years of relative stability and some celebrity media hype to tide us over. But that ended in 2000 and things started turning south. But 9/11 and the War on Terrorism got us distracted enough. When that settled down, we had a few years of relative stability and some media hype to tide us over.

Perhaps when America sees no external threats, we start looking for enemies to fight... and those idiots across the aisle look like good targets...

I hate to put it like this, but... maybe the US needs another 9/11 if it doesn't want to disintegrate? That's a sad and frustrating thing to say, but it might be true.

The even more frustrating thing is this: In the 2020 election, the youngest people voting will have been born after 9/11. The political climate we've been experiencing for this time will be all they have ever known. To them, it's always been this way, and this is normal. That frightens me.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby JustAName » 23 Mar 2016, 08:15

I wouldn't say we need targets, though. They just prolong the problem and foster further aggression, whoever we aim it at. We need to deal with the problem internally, or face that we have such deep-rooted problems that we don't deserve to wield the power that we do in the world.

(I know I keep saying "we," but I'm still a citizen at least for now.)
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby korvys » 23 Mar 2016, 15:41

If the problem can be paraphrased as "We need targets, we don't have targets", I think it's the wrong approach to think that the second part of that sentence is the part that needs fixing.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Darkflame » 25 Mar 2016, 10:25

The "Watchmen" method of peace I don't think will work here. Americas has been blasted with so much fear mongering and fake/hugely exaggerated threats I am not sure a real one will seem much different.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby empath » 02 Apr 2016, 16:05

AdmiralMemo wrote:
Forecedreject wrote:After doing some casual observations over the past few weeks, I've learned that my greatest fear right now isn't Trump. It's the political atmosphere.

There seems to be alot of hostility, from all sides. A lot more hostile than usual. I'm starting to consider what Memo said at the beginning of this thread rather seriously. There's a dangerous level of polarization going around the country. Americans are so charged in their camps that they're foaming at the mouth and ready to turn into each other.

Our current age of media isn't helping either. Highlighting all the sensational hypercharged moments and whipping people into a frenzy. Whether Trump wins or loses, I'm feeling anxious about the next 4-8 years.
empath wrote:Agreed.

Trump being a viable candidate with his 'say whatever self-contradictory drivel grabs attention' marketing strategy is just a symptom of just what Forecedeject and Memo are pointing out...
I could say "Nyeh nyeh nyeh... Told ya so..." *sticks thumbs in ears, sticks out tongue, and waggles fingers*

I could say that if the situation weren't so serious and grim. :-(

In all honesty, the situation we're seeing today would've happened 8 or 12 years ago if 9/11 hadn't occurred. The parties were ready to turn on each other in 2000. 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan gave them an external foe to focus on. If you were for the war, the external foe was "those dang Arabs who come over here to blow up our buildings!" If you were against the war, the external foe was the fact that we were at war itself. But now that the war is over, at least in the public's mind, the parties have used their stockpiled political energy and are turning on each other again.

And just as I'm typing that, I realized something... Maybe America is so bad off that we need some sort of external target to focus upon to stop ourselves from infighting. For a good 40-odd years, we had the threat of "The Commies!" to focus on. When that threat disintegrated in the early 90s, we had the First Gulf War to occupy us. When that was over, we had a few years of relative stability and some celebrity media hype to tide us over. But that ended in 2000 and things started turning south. But 9/11 and the War on Terrorism got us distracted enough. When that settled down, we had a few years of relative stability and some media hype to tide us over.

Perhaps when America sees no external threats, we start looking for enemies to fight... and those idiots across the aisle look like good targets...

I hate to put it like this, but... maybe the US needs another 9/11 if it doesn't want to disintegrate? That's a sad and frustrating thing to say, but it might be true.


This has made me think of an even more unsettling thing: if America needs an external 'enemy' to focus its attention on so that it doesn't disintegrate, then...maybe America shouldn't be any longer?

I see parallels between USA's current state of affairs and the city-states of Greece: they'd out-and-out war with each other...until the Persians came knocking on the door. And without enemies to unite against, the situation DID devolve; eventually they weakened one another to the point where an external enemy came along...and overran the whole lot of them.

But this means that eventually there's going to be a 'quiet' period that will deny America's sub-cultures anything to unify against, and squabble amongst one another to the point that their federal level of government is going to just atrophy away, and there may well be a Fourth Continental Congress called...to see about the Dissolution of the Union, and the subsequent founding of a handful of smaller but more cohesive regional nations (what - really - does California have in common with Mississippi? Or Wisconsin with Arizona?) Maybe it's finally coming to light that the Union is just too big to work effectively - it covers too much area with too many disparate groups of people to function properly as an entity?


The even more frustrating thing is this: In the 2020 election, the youngest people voting will have been born after 9/11. The political climate we've been experiencing for this time will be all they have ever known. To them, it's always been this way, and this is normal. That frightens me.


On one hand I wanna quote your sig back at you, after having a similar experience of looking around and realizing that everyone around me hadn't been born until after German Unification and Glasnost, and would have no idea what it was like living during the Cold War and the PREVALENT and OVERT threat of near-instantaneous destruction of civilization, to just say "get over it, you're just reaching middle-age and your parents felt the same way when the cultural zeitgeist evolved away from what they knew; it's happening to you now, and in another twenty years or so, it'll happen to the young voters you're thinking about, too" ;)

...but on the other hand, the specific circumstances of the political climate - which you do point out and dwell on - make this particular 'generation' a little more worrisome. I guess we just gotta hope they paid attention in school, particularly in history class?
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Hekla » 02 Apr 2016, 16:34

I kind of have the opposite perspective, as much as it can be an opposite. Unifying threats distract from underlying problems in any political system, and legitimise what would otherwise be awful decisions. In some cases, it can lead to improvements like the welfare state, but in others it can destroy our expectation of privacy, and keep us all fearful. There is something liberating about being able to grapple with one's own political divides rather than constantly having to demonstrate that your party will destroy the enemy the hardest. Some of the US's ugliest moments in recent history came about because of/excused by 9/11.

Another problem with the US is that it is so creepily bipartisan. Aside from a few characters, and perhaps local movements, everything can easily be cast as 'us against them' when there are no third parties. Coming from the UK which has a plethora of decent third parties to choose from, I find the political discussion in the US borderline Orwellian in how the two parties are cast as good or evil, depending on whose side you are on. There are some good protest movements working against that be they libertarians, occupy Wall Street or Black Lives Matter - movements or ideologies that try to challenge their side of the system, but it is very much an uphill battle.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 06 Apr 2016, 15:32

Welp, not really trump related but certainly politics. The Netherlands voted against the EU treaty with Ukraine in a non-binding referendum. I count that as a win but politically its going to get very interesting.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Lord Chrusher » 07 Apr 2016, 11:29

It is not a win for Ukraine.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Dutch guy » 07 Apr 2016, 14:53

Lord Chrusher wrote:It is not a win for Ukraine.


That depends entirely on context and what particular Ukrainian is involved. Most of the trade treaty is already in effect and will most likely stay in effect. The only thing not happening for now is the visa free travel, military agreements and certain financial supports. The free travel will most likely actually be bad for Ukraine. It's a country currently torn in 2 by civil war. A lot of the better educated youth would most likely seek to further their education and lives somewhere far away from that and then likely not return for a long time, leading to a brain-drain from the country. The financial support would end up in the pockets of the very rich and very corrupt upper class in the country and the average Ukrainian wouldn't be helped by it. The military agreements could very easily lead to WW3 from the simple fact Russia will never accept Ukraine to be outside its sphere of influence.

The Ukrainians have always had way more trade with Russia than the EU. The corruption and outside influences on the country have already lead to this trade falling to 0 and leaving many people without jobs and impoverished. And then plunging the nation into a war! With the way things were faring in the nation, the annexation of the Crimean peninsula by Russia was just a matter of time. There is a large part of the population that legitimately feels they are more Russian than Ukrainian and who feel very strongly that the move of the government towards tighter ties with the EU and less with Russia is a bad one. Both the EU and the Ukrainian government however are STILL doing their very best to ignore, vilify and/or deny those beliefs.

I'm not saying the EU shouldn't be making a TRADE agreement with Ukraine and do it's best to ease the tensions between it and Russia (for all our sakes), but the current treaty is about WAY more than trade and goes WAY further than it should. In the end there's a good chance it would even be BAD for Ukraine for this treaty to move forward as is.

So no, this is not a win for Ukraine. It's not a loss either!
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Lord Chrusher » 27 May 2016, 05:14

If you can vote in Britain, please remember to register to vote in the EU referendum - you must do so before June 7th. No matter what option you have on Britain leaving the EU, this is a major decision that everyone should have a voice in.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Darkflame » 28 May 2016, 02:36

And please, please, please dont believe the leaflets being put out (by both sides). Theres a lot of false or missleading claims in them.
The chances are whatever way your leaning, you will have some wrong ideas how the pro's/con's.

This is a independant site that fact checks a lot of the claims;
https://fullfact.org/

Best to think why you are voting, and then check if it matchs.
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Meanwhile in Trump-ton:

Apparently hes been saying again global warming is a big lie, he will pull out of agreements the US has made and he will increase the coal burning in the states.
His logic, incidentally, seems to be "others countries shouldn't tell us what to do on our land". Is he planning to put the US into a air tight bubble?
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald T

Postby Amake » 28 May 2016, 10:56

That'd be nice for everyone else. My country gets more pollution from Texas alone than we produce.

But nah, Donny doesn't actually plan on doing anything. He's just saying whatever he thinks will get headlines, as always.
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