Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby SAJewers » 25 Jan 2017, 12:08

If anyone hasn't, give a listen to the latest episode of the East Meets West Podcast. They end up talking a lot about the US election/politics, and I think it's a good listen.

http://www.subbrilliant.com/emw/?p=921
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Darkflame » 28 Jan 2017, 13:52

A quick summery of recent events;

1. Trump has just signed a executive banning people coming to america from 7 countries; Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Yemen
2. This includes both citizens and refugees, regardless of the danger to their lives.
3. No one from any of these countries has attacked the us in a terrorist attack. (The places the 9/11 attackers were from; Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and the UAE are not on Trumps ban list......"coincidentally" he has business interests there)
4. The ban even effects people that have visas and have already been granted permission.
5. Google has immediately recalled all their staff from effected areas, fearing they wont be able to get back.

Things are getting pretty scary :(
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Elomin Sha » 28 Jan 2017, 15:40

I gave Trump a chance to see how good/bad he was in power (As with any President/Prime Minister). Was expecting it to be a little more than 8 days, maybe a month, before he did a massive a cock up. I was wrong.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Amake » 28 Jan 2017, 16:35

What, the Muslim ban? That was the very first thing Trump promised as he launched his campaign and his most consistent talking point throughout? Yeah who'd have thought. Thank you for admitting it though.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby SAJewers » 28 Jan 2017, 17:25

Darkflame wrote:A quick summery of recent events;

1. Trump has just signed a executive banning people coming to america from 7 countries; Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Yemen
2. This includes both citizens and refugees, regardless of the danger to their lives.
3. No one from any of these countries has attacked the us in a terrorist attack. (The places the 9/11 attackers were from; Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and the UAE are not on Trumps ban list......"coincidentally" he has business interests there)
4. The ban even effects people that have visas and have already been granted permission.
5. Google has immediately recalled all their staff from effected areas, fearing they wont be able to get back.

Things are getting pretty scary :(

Also effects Dual Citizens. If you have American citizenship along with citizenship of one of those countries, you're SOL.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Elomin Sha » 28 Jan 2017, 17:50

Amake wrote:What, the Muslim ban? That was the very first thing Trump promised as he launched his campaign and his most consistent talking point throughout? Yeah who'd have thought. Thank you for admitting it though.


No need for the sarcasm. And what I wrote was not to fallicitate the need for a thank you.

I'm not arrogant enough not to admit when I am wrong. My initial look at the world above took me towards a wrong conclusion. Meh, no one here is perfect. As with most things in life I tend to lean to, let's give [whoever] a chance. If they do a good job, so be it. If they do a crap job, call them on it.

I looked at things he said during the election and how he kept flip-flopping and changing things slightly with what he said through canvassing. Made an assumption that he was just saying things to grab votes from the single-minded voters, but no go through with it because he'd have advisors with some common sense. But obviously in the past few days there has been reports/leaks that he's not listening to them.
I went with what I knew and I came up with a bad answer. I never said I'd expect he'd be a good president, did expect him to not do a great job, possibly just below average. I did joke that it be hilarious if he played everyone and did nothing bad. Didn't think he'd go to hell in a handbasket so quickly.
Probably the best example to get the voting system changed. It's happened multiple times where Republican party were elected and didn't win the Popular Vote but nothing was done.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby MotorWaffle » 28 Jan 2017, 20:14

Elomin Sha wrote:
Amake wrote:What, the Muslim ban? That was the very first thing Trump promised as he launched his campaign and his most consistent talking point throughout? Yeah who'd have thought. Thank you for admitting it though.


No need for the sarcasm. And what I wrote was not to fallicitate the need for a thank you.

I'm not arrogant enough not to admit when I am wrong. My initial look at the world above took me towards a wrong conclusion. Meh, no one here is perfect. As with most things in life I tend to lean to, let's give [whoever] a chance. If they do a good job, so be it. If they do a crap job, call them on it.

I looked at things he said during the election and how he kept flip-flopping and changing things slightly with what he said through canvassing. Made an assumption that he was just saying things to grab votes from the single-minded voters, but no go through with it because he'd have advisors with some common sense. But obviously in the past few days there has been reports/leaks that he's not listening to them.
I went with what I knew and I came up with a bad answer. I never said I'd expect he'd be a good president, did expect him to not do a great job, possibly just below average. I did joke that it be hilarious if he played everyone and did nothing bad. Didn't think he'd go to hell in a handbasket so quickly.
Probably the best example to get the voting system changed. It's happened multiple times where Republican party were elected and didn't win the Popular Vote but nothing was done.


I think that's what most people assumed, because making wilder and wilder proclamations for attention during the race has just been a fact of American politics.
Though I would not support a change to pure popular vote. That's when the issues of tyranny of the majority start rearing their ugly heads.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Darkflame » 29 Jan 2017, 05:00

Wasn't the wall the first thing?
Not that it maters now.

As for voting systems;
The difference this time was between 16% as and 17%. Trump would have lost, but it still would have been very close. The problem is how a man like that gets 16% to start with, not the last % making a difference.
Theres plenty of blame to go around. A large proportion Id put on the press.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Elomin Sha » 29 Jan 2017, 05:12

Yes, and for the people not taking Trump seriously too. That's on them. The constant: Hilary is going to win. Would put anyone of from both sides turning up to vote: "Why should we she's obviously going to win."
If people got rilled up at the popular vote how come there wasn't as many rilled up for what was accused within the DNC to screw over Bernie?
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Lord Chrusher » 29 Jan 2017, 14:36

Can we change the title of this thread from the 'Vague Fear' of Trump to 'Fear' of Trump?
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Elomin Sha » 29 Jan 2017, 14:42

I have no fear.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby MinniChi » 29 Jan 2017, 20:18

Being a northern neighbour, I feel a fair bit of fear.

But I am very happy to be seeing a number of videos of American politicians decrying the actions of Trump.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Amake » 29 Jan 2017, 21:47

The ACLU, showing they can successfully oppose Trump's civil rights violations in court, has received five times their usual yearly contributions since Saturday. That gives me hope.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby AdmiralMemo » 30 Jan 2017, 06:41

Lord Chrusher wrote:Can we change the title of this thread from the 'Vague Fear' of Trump to 'Fear' of Trump?
Only the thread creator, which is ForcedReject in this case, can do that, via editing the first post. (Or, I guess anyone with edit power, so like maybe mods and admins? Not sure who has what power on the forums.)
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Elomin Sha » 30 Jan 2017, 12:01

Or start up a new thread: 'Donald Trump: The Fear is Real'.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby AdmiralMemo » 02 Feb 2017, 01:33

So today is the first time that Donald Trump has actually shocked me. Before you say something like "Where've you been for the past few years, then?!" to me, please consider a distinction: shocked. Trump's done many things that have angered or upset me, but prior to today, has never done anything that I couldn't reasonably work out some sort of chain of logic behind, no matter how many falsehoods it was built upon. I was able to be like "OK, if you start from Deplorable World-view X and take Easily-Disproven Falsehood Y as truth, you'll end up doing Action Z." And thus, my mind was at ease. I could at least make sense of actions, even deplorable ones, in some sort of logical framework. I'd hear that Trump said this or did that and the gears in my brain would start working. I'd be able to work out a way that could happen based upon what I know of Trump and end up like "Yeah, I could see him doing that." I wouldn't be surprised.

All of that was shaken today.

Trump has various National Parks up for sale for drilling and mining rights. On its face, I can still make some sort of logical framework out of this. "This stuff is old. People don't remember or care about it anymore. Let's repurpose it for useful stuff." Even if this is easily proven false, it's still feasible for someone to have this kind of bone-headed wrong opinion.

But one of those entries struck me and struck me to the core. One of the places up for sale is the Flight 93 Memorial. This collapsed everything I previously thought. Everything else on the list, you could construct a case around the fact that it's so old that no one remembers anything that happened there anymore. It wouldn't be any sort of winning case, but it could at least be argued. It would be something that someone could plausibly be saying.

But the Flight 93 Memorial? That's freaking 9/11! That's LIVING MEMORY for every red-blooded American of drinking age or older! That was the day that America got together and all sorts of barriers were broken to mend what was lost. On that day, age, race, gender, politics, social class... none of that mattered. We were Americans and we were one. The Flight 93 Memorial is probably one of the closest things we could get to an American Religious Holy Site.

And now it's up for sale...

It's stuff like this that makes a teetotaler want to drink...
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Amake » 02 Feb 2017, 13:53

What we're seeing is a typical totalitarian regime's initial attack pattern. The goal is to overwhelm the establishment with as broad a spectrum of violations as possible, numbing our sensibilities and preventing organized resistance. For that purpose, the most shocking and despicable actions they think they can get away with are the most effective. Plus, in the worst case where they are disposed of as quickly as we should hope, selling a lot of national resources will give them money.

What helps me dealing with my feelings about that is the realization they don't matter. It may take some time to accept that your president is fighting an undeclared war against you in order to loot your country of everything of value, you're allowed to be shocked. But you're going to have to ask how much emotion you can afford and how much will get in the way of effective resistance.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Dutch guy » 02 Feb 2017, 14:50

I'm sorry Amake, but that just seems total bullshit. Please provide ANY reference to this being a "typical totalitarian regime's initial attack pattern". What makes you believe Trump has ANY interest in setting up a totalitarian regime?

Ohh and about that "Land for sale". THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY TRUMP! That's the GOP members of Congress! And they've been working on this for YEARS now. Do a bit of googling on this and you'll find this isn't a plan that formed recently and wasn't formed by Trump but by some other Congressmen most likely deep in the pockets of the oil/mineral/mining industry.

As for the sale of the land around the Flight 93 memorial. That's first and foremost reprehensible. However I doubt anybody would actually be able to get a mining concession that didn't involve strict stipulations about preserving the memorial site and surroundings. (A lot of mining and drilling can actually be done without anybody even noticing)
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Dutch guy » 02 Feb 2017, 14:57

From a Forbes article posted yesterday, the people you should be pissed at:

In the last week, Congress has proposed a flurry of new bills that would ease the transfer of federal public lands into private hands. Among them:

--H.R. 621, which was introduced by Utah Rep., Jason Chaffetz, (R) and would direct the sale of 3.3 million acres of public land.

--H.J. Res. 46, which was introduced by Arizona Rep., Paul Gosar (R), and would encourage drilling in National Parks.

--A Congressional Review Act of “Planning 2.0,” introduced by Alaska Sen., Lisa Murkwoski (R), and Wyoming Rep., Liz Cheney, that would overturn a rule that gave the public more say in how BLM lands are managed.


Encouragingly it also contains the following passage:
Trump’s stance on the sale of federal public lands was unequivocal during the 2016 presidential campaign. A year ago, Trump and his son, Don, Jr. (an avid outdoorsman), sat down for an interview with Field & Stream. Trump told the magazine: “I want to keep the lands great…and I don’t think it’s something that should be sold.”


So please start blaming the right people in your government and not the guy everybody loves to hate (Even though some of the time the hate is somewhat justified).

The US political system is broken and quite possibly corrupt to the bone, but the only way you are going to get this fixed is if you keep identifying where the problem actually IS. Because Trump might be a dangerous mentally ill Orangutang but he's not the only source of evil.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Amake » 02 Feb 2017, 16:53

The thing that makes me believe Trump's administration is setting up a totalitarian regime is the combination of every single thing they've done and said, compared to every other totalitarian regime we've seen. Trump personally may not have an interest in that or even any idea what it means, but as you mention he's not the only problem. The end result is that it's happening, and the question you should be asking I think is what to do about it.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Darkflame » 03 Feb 2017, 03:33

I dont think Trump is smart enough to mastermind anything. Honestly, I think his actions can be explained by his insanely huge, yet fragile ego, combined with his massive arrogance. He thinks he is smart and won in a landslide.
He has no interests outside himself, but he thinks he is good for the country anyway.

Thats not the same totalitarian like ragiem isn't happening though, but its less a cunning plan, and more a mess being-allowed-to-happen because the GOP either dont have the guts, or want to take as much advantage as they can.
Things Id be concerned about is systemtic changes;
Trump has fired huge numbers of staff remember, and only replaced a fraction. There's been a judge fired for following the law, not the presidents order. The GOP changed the rules on appointments to avoid a DNC blocking them.
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And, yes, blame the right people, absolutely. I think they deliberately are pushing as much as they can because Trump is a big distraction. There is so much shit people dont have the energy to fight it all.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby SAJewers » 03 Feb 2017, 05:36

Dutch guy wrote:From a Forbes article posted yesterday, the people you should be pissed at:

In the last week, Congress has proposed a flurry of new bills that would ease the transfer of federal public lands into private hands. Among them:

--H.R. 621, which was introduced by Utah Rep., Jason Chaffetz, (R) and would direct the sale of 3.3 million acres of public land.

--H.J. Res. 46, which was introduced by Arizona Rep., Paul Gosar (R), and would encourage drilling in National Parks.

--A Congressional Review Act of “Planning 2.0,” introduced by Alaska Sen., Lisa Murkwoski (R), and Wyoming Rep., Liz Cheney, that would overturn a rule that gave the public more say in how BLM lands are managed.


Encouragingly it also contains the following passage:
Trump’s stance on the sale of federal public lands was unequivocal during the 2016 presidential campaign. A year ago, Trump and his son, Don, Jr. (an avid outdoorsman), sat down for an interview with Field & Stream. Trump told the magazine: “I want to keep the lands great…and I don’t think it’s something that should be sold.”


So please start blaming the right people in your government and not the guy everybody loves to hate (Even though some of the time the hate is somewhat justified).

The US political system is broken and quite possibly corrupt to the bone, but the only way you are going to get this fixed is if you keep identifying where the problem actually IS. Because Trump might be a dangerous mentally ill Orangutang but he's not the only source of evil.

Yeah, people really need to differentiate between the stuff Trump is doing, and the stuff the Republicans would've done anyway, regardless who the Republican President was.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Darkflame » 04 Feb 2017, 03:14

Or stuff they are doing because everyone is focused on Trump and they can get away with more while eyes are of them.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Dutch guy » 04 Feb 2017, 04:11

Amake wrote:The thing that makes me believe Trump's administration is setting up a totalitarian regime is the combination of every single thing they've done and said, compared to every other totalitarian regime we've seen. Trump personally may not have an interest in that or even any idea what it means, but as you mention he's not the only problem. The end result is that it's happening, and the question you should be asking I think is what to do about it.


Again, please provide an example. Because so far Trump is not doing ANY of the things needed to form a totalitarian regime (never mind that the US political system doesn't allow the President to do this on his own anyway). He hasn't strengthened his grip on the judicial, law enforcement or defense system in any meaningful way. He hasn't made any sweeping changes to the education system. He hasn't made any moves to control the free movement of US citizens within the country and only a small move outside the borders that can barely be called a grab for control. He hasn't made any move to control the food supply or the flow of money. He hasn't made a move to control the use and ownership of firearms. In other words, he hasn't made ANY of the main moves to set up any sort of totalitarian regime.

I get that you fear this guy is somehow going to ruin your life or start WW3, but please stay as objective as possible. Exactly in this situation you need to stay focused on what actually matters and not get blindsided by all the FUD that gets spread around from all sides. The man could very clearly be a danger to world peace the way he's been acting but for the love of *deity* let's not get carried away and try to paint him as the next Hitler before he makes any of the moves needed to actually become the leader of the Fourth Reich.

If Hillary had become president things wouldn't be better. The neo-con line the US has been taking for the past decade is dangerous. The unbridled spying on anything and everything, the use of drones in foreign countries the US is not actually at war at, the increasing tensions with Russia over conflicts like Syria and Ukraine, they are all things happening right now that started under Bush, increased tremendously under Obama and would certainly have continued or increased further under H. Clinton. Her views on foreign policy certainly lend themselves to the US and Russia sliding back deeper and deeper towards the cold war mentality that had finally been almost put to bed. And China is now also getting into the mix to make things even less stable than they were in the 70s and 80s.

Yes, Trump is an idiot, and yes he's wrong on a lot of things. We'll have to wait and see what his next moves are now that several states have declared his executive order banning certain nationalities entry into the country against the law.

Also, if Trump somehow doesn't make it to full term we'll get to deal with Pence as president of the US. If you think Trump is a clown, look into what this guy thinks... Personally I think that's far more of a thread than Trump poses.
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Re: Politics and the Vague Fear of Something Called Donald Trump

Postby Amake » 04 Feb 2017, 13:10

One example? I really don't really know where to start. We have the constant lying, discrediting of media, arresting journalists, outlawing the free dissemination of climate and agricultural science, open threats against dissenting judges, and there was this thing today about the FCC cutting Internet subsidies, all of which serves nothing as much as keeping the public as uninformed as possible. I'd like to see an example of anything that would suggest Trump's administration is not copying the creation of Putin's autocracy step by step.
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