Battle of the Belly Buttons: Are You an Innie or an Outie?

[Elomin Sha]

So the EU Referendum is going on how do you guys think it will go regardless of out come?

[Elaro]

I've never been to the EU, but I heard it's a nice place.

I vote in

[theycallmejokke]

I feel like the EU in theory is a really wonderful idea, that sadly far to often doesn't live up to it's potential in practice. Still though, I'm not quite ready just yet to give up on it.
So in I guess.

[Darkflame]

In.
I believe easy free travel,trade and some level of inter-dependency has contributed to the huge decline in wars over the last century.
The EU wasn't the only factor, of course, but I believe it has helped this trend.

The out argument - once you remove the "omg immigrants are scary" and lies - basically comes down to the fact the UK was a net contributor. 190million a week (not 350), but a net contributor nontheless.
Personally that doesn't bother me. I am happy to pay tax for things that dont help me personally - and I see no difference if it helps those in other countries. Maybe theres things I dont want it spent on....but, again, thats no different from money spent in the country.

[Amake]

You can't really remove the "omg immigrants are scary" argument until you have removed the people in power who make it, as I said in the other thread. There are more imminent considerations here than who deserves your tax money more.

[Drecon]

I'm a globalist. I firmly believe that the only real future we have in the long run is one where all people in the whole world get to cooperate towards the well-being of all. While the EU has its problems, it's not only a good vehicle for a better world, but also a symbol for overcoming differences and building a better world together.

[AdmiralMemo]

I think one thing the EU needs to work on is that it has a unified monetary policy without a unified fiscal policy.

[MinniChi]

In answer to the poll, my belly button is neither an innie or outie. It is flat. As for EU thing, In seems like it would be better than out.

[Darkflame]

You can't really remove the "omg immigrants are scary" argument until you have removed the people in power who make it, as I said in the other thread. There are more imminent considerations here than who deserves your tax money more.

I merely meant in the context of remain/leave arguments I don't consider immigration at all a factor in my personal decision.
In terms of what I will argue against though immigration is about the only thing that will make my blood boil. I can talk civilly about many issues I disagree with. But if someone starts demonizing refugee's. If someone - sitting in a comfortable house, with internet, food and water all piped in - has the audacity to start talking about how the country is "full up" or "reaching breaking point" when faced with people literally bombed out of their homes then they can fuck right off.
And that goes doubly for anyone that does that for political again.

[King Kool]

Ohhh, so that's why, when people see my belly button, they say, "Eu."

[Dutch guy]

when faced with people literally bombed out of their homes

The thing is, many of them AREN'T. I have not problems with my tax euros being used to help actual refugees, people who really need it. But many of the people arriving in the Netherlands are single males from countries that are NOT currently at war. And have then traveled the length and breadth of the european continent to get all the way to the Netherlands before registering as a refugee.

I blame a lot of this on EU policy. They should be doing a lot more to register refugees as soon as they enter the EU zone, to provide proper safe housing and to distribute them across the member states. They should be doing a lot more to deter those who do not qualify as refugees from putting themselves in danger by making a dangerous sea crossing in a small rubber dinghy or walk very long distances. And then once refugees DO arrive in a country its also important to make sure they stay safe.

A lot of the resistance against more "refugees" coming into the countries is that many people see the integration of the previous waves of immigrants is failing in many ways. Many of these people start clustering together and only interact with "the native population" (Whatever that means) on a very limited basis. This turns to ghettos forming where the rules are no longer dictated by the laws and customs of the country but by the population living there. Resistance happens when the government suddenly comes in to tell the population of a village of 500 people that a refugee center is opening there next week and 1500! refugees/immigrants will be housed there (This happened in the Netherlands). Refugees/immigrants who are not really allowed to do anything (by law) except hang around.
When reports come out that between 67 and 80% of immigrants from Somalia, Afghanistan, Iran and Irak have never had a job after 10 years of legally being allowed to and a majority of them receive benefits from an already strained system, resistance grows.

With this kind of immigration policy it's no wonder resentment/resistance amongst the "native" population grows.

I'm certainly not saying we should stop helping refugees. I'm not saying we should stop allowing immigrants but I AM saying maybe some more thought has to be put into how we are going to pay for all of this while being fair to those that actually do the labour/earning.

[Darkflame]

I'm talking about the UK.
Where
a) Immigrants are less likely then natives to be claiming any benefits at all.
b) Most immigrants arriving actually dont even have a clue what benefits they are entitled too. (or indeed, much of anything about rights etc).

Almost universally the rhetoric put forward in the uk is "our country is too generous! All these people are coming for our benefits!". Which is just wrong. This also pretty arrogant to start with (that idea the UK is so much better then anywhere else regarding benefits - bollocks frankly).

The other things that often comes up is that somehow they are simultaneously lying about doing nothing _and_ "they are taking our jobs!". Again, completely myth, no data backs this up. (and in fact, data shows some positive economic benefits).

For reference, this is the sort of imagery presented;




This isn't "oh, we need to ensure better integration of immigrants" etc.
This is "OMG! Look at all these scary foreign people invading!"

THIS is what I am angry with.

--

Incidentally, for good details of where the immigrants are coming from and going too;
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911

Syria is still double everywhere else for the source of immigrants. And UK is WAY down the list for how much being taken in. (relative to local population).

[Amake]

Let's not forget that despicable ad is directly referencing classic Nazi propaganda.

Like I'm saying.

These people are fascists.

They're working to exploit peoples' fears and increase societal tensions in order to take power.

If you give them the chance, they will have another Holocaust.

There is nothing to gain from any debate on any topic in their purview before they are removed from power.

[Darkobra]

I love how they're "taking back control" yet now that they HAVE the alleged opportunity, every single thing they promised is turning out to be a lie and they've no idea what they're doing.

Someone pick up that phone. Because I CALLED IT!

[Deedles]

I love how they're "taking back control" yet now that they HAVE the alleged opportunity, every single thing they promised is turning out to be a lie and they've no idea what they're doing.

Someone pick up that phone. Because I CALLED IT!