So... About that Significant World Event that Happened...

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empath
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby empath » 24 Jun 2016, 16:59

Well, the UK was a separate sovereign state for...quite a while (how long after 1066 did William cut ties with his kith and kin back in Normandy?), and joined the EEC in 1973.

So it's been part of a greater 'state' for 43 years, but before that was independent (William and Mary being an outlier and shouldn't be counted ;) ) for something like two orders of magnitude GREATER.

On the other hand, New France/Lower Canada/Quebec came into existence about five hundred years later, and then was a colony of France for about two hundred years, then a century as a British-owned colony, then a portion of the new Dominion of Canada in 1867 and stayed in that state for almost a hundred-and-fifty years to today (bee tea dubs: sesquicentennial next year; we'd better get started on party prep :shock: )

So you might say that Quebec is less 'ready' to go on its own than the UK is, and hasn't BEEN on its own before...

...but if 'la Belle Province' wants to cut ties, Newfoundland and Labrador is fully willing to cut those hydro lines and re-negotiate sale of power that Quebec resells to the US for a (formerly) massive profit.

...oh and she can finally give up her delusions about ownership of land that every administrative and legal body appealed to has said she does NOT have rights to.
;)

Seriously, though; how things are shaping up across the pond will likely dissuade the voting public from listening to the hawks of independence and trying to separate/threaten to separate to get stuff.

...and the financial turmoil? Well, to be honest, it's just another day in that respect; there's ALWAYS something causing markets to rise, drop, diversify, etc. This is uncomfortable (especially for those who tie their livelihoods to these markets), but it is a short term 'market correction'. Things will settle down once whatever happens happens.

I'm a little disappointed (it was a REALLY close thing), but I'm not going to flail around and gnash my teeth and pull my hair over 'the end of the world'.

It doesn't seem definite that the UK will completely remove itself from the EU yet; there are...well, to draw from Nanny Ogg "there's many a slip twix't dress n' drawers", so it's too early to say for sure what will even happen, let alone what the consequences of what happens will be.

If the UK drops the EU...and consequently loses the ECHR, it would be the perfect opportunity for people to petition their Members of Parliament to see about presenting a similar member's bill in the House of Commons for the UK's OWN law books...and why not make that pending law even better? Again, a perfect opportunity to exert what little influence you have on government and persuade legislators to make laws that the people want.

And, in closing, here's a 'timeline' I ripped from someone's tumblr blog:
Hi there. If you’re just waking up

* Brexit won
* The £ plummeted to a 30-year low
* Japan has stopped trading
* Scotland is pushing for independence
* Ireland is considering re-unification
* The Dutch Freedom Party are calling for their own EU referendum

Image
-----
Well, this took off whilst I went to sleep for a couple of hours.

An update:

* David Cameron has resigned, a fact I’d never thought I’d be sad about
* Donald Trump just landed in Scotland, because we haven’t suffered enough
* Nicola Sturgeon says EU folk are “still welcome in Scotland” and “their contribution is valued”
* She’s thrown down the gauntlet re: staying in and is petitioning the EU for membership. The result is “democratically unacceptable”
* “I intend to take all possible steps to give effect to how Scotland voted. In other words, to secure our place in the EU”
* Statement officially made that second independence referendum “highly likely”
* The financial markets are a shitshow
* Vote Leave have ALREADY backtracked on their two defining campaign promises (more money for the NHS, less immigration)
-----
* A motion of No Confidence has been leveled at Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who honestly lasted longer than I thought he would
* The UK have lost £350 billion so far
-----
* Spain could re-take Gibraltar if they wanted to make a move
* Morgan Stanley have started the process to move 2,000 investment banking staff from London to Dublin/Frankfurt
* EU leaders are calling on the UK to get out ASAP
* The New York stock exchange is down 500 points
* From the amount wiped off shares, so far, divided by 32m voters… the cost is already at £6,000 per voter
* Donald Trump has come out in support of the decision to leave, which is how you know we messed up real bad
* Everything is fucked
* I’m so sorry

(the dash-breaks are for indicating the end of a nested quote, since the forum now protects itself from neverending quote-cascades)


A lot of knee-jerk fearmongering (e.g. the Japanese markets stopped trading because IT WAS THE END OF THE DAY; they do this EVERY DAY at this time)

...but it is kinda smirk-inducing funny...in a black humour way...
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby empath » 24 Jun 2016, 17:00

Well, the UK was a separate sovereign state for...quite a while (how long after 1066 did William cut ties with his kith and kin back in Normandy?), and joined the EEC in 1973.

So it's been part of a greater 'state' for 43 years, but before that was independent (William and Mary being an outlier and shouldn't be counted ;) ) for something like two orders of magnitude GREATER.

On the other hand, New France/Lower Canada/Quebec came into existence about five hundred years later, and then was a colony of France for about two hundred years, then a century as a British-owned colony, then a portion of the new Dominion of Canada in 1867 and stayed in that state for almost a hundred-and-fifty years to today (bee tea dubs: sesquicentennial next year; we'd better get started on party prep :shock: )

So you might say that Quebec is less 'ready' to go on its own than the UK is, and hasn't BEEN on its own before...

...but if 'la Belle Province' wants to cut ties, Newfoundland and Labrador is fully willing to cut those hydro lines and re-negotiate sale of power that Quebec resells to the US for a (formerly) massive profit.

...oh and she can finally give up her delusions about ownership of land that every administrative and legal body appealed to has said she does NOT have rights to.
;)

Seriously, though; how things are shaping up across the pond will likely dissuade the voting public from listening to the hawks of independence and trying to separate/threaten to separate to get stuff.

...and the financial turmoil? Well, to be honest, it's just another day in that respect; there's ALWAYS something causing markets to rise, drop, diversify, etc. This is uncomfortable (especially for those who tie their livelihoods to these markets), but it is a short term 'market correction'. Things will settle down once whatever happens happens.

I'm a little disappointed (it was a REALLY close thing), but I'm not going to flail around and gnash my teeth and pull my hair over 'the end of the world'.

It doesn't seem definite that the UK will completely remove itself from the EU yet; there are...well, to draw from Nanny Ogg "there's many a slip twix't dress n' drawers", so it's too early to say for sure what will even happen, let alone what the consequences of what happens will be.

If the UK drops the EU...and consequently loses the ECHR, it would be the perfect opportunity for people to petition their Members of Parliament to see about presenting a similar member's bill in the House of Commons for the UK's OWN law books...and why not make that pending law even better? Again, a perfect opportunity to exert what little influence you have on government and persuade legislators to make laws that the people want.

And, in closing, here's a 'timeline' I ripped from someone's tumblr blog:
Hi there. If you’re just waking up

* Brexit won
* The £ plummeted to a 30-year low
* Japan has stopped trading
* Scotland is pushing for independence
* Ireland is considering re-unification
* The Dutch Freedom Party are calling for their own EU referendum

Image
-----
Well, this took off whilst I went to sleep for a couple of hours.

An update:

* David Cameron has resigned, a fact I’d never thought I’d be sad about
* Donald Trump just landed in Scotland, because we haven’t suffered enough
* Nicola Sturgeon says EU folk are “still welcome in Scotland” and “their contribution is valued”
* She’s thrown down the gauntlet re: staying in and is petitioning the EU for membership. The result is “democratically unacceptable”
* “I intend to take all possible steps to give effect to how Scotland voted. In other words, to secure our place in the EU”
* Statement officially made that second independence referendum “highly likely”
* The financial markets are a shitshow
* Vote Leave have ALREADY backtracked on their two defining campaign promises (more money for the NHS, less immigration)
-----
* A motion of No Confidence has been leveled at Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who honestly lasted longer than I thought he would
* The UK have lost £350 billion so far
-----
* Spain could re-take Gibraltar if they wanted to make a move
* Morgan Stanley have started the process to move 2,000 investment banking staff from London to Dublin/Frankfurt
* EU leaders are calling on the UK to get out ASAP
* The New York stock exchange is down 500 points
* From the amount wiped off shares, so far, divided by 32m voters… the cost is already at £6,000 per voter
* Donald Trump has come out in support of the decision to leave, which is how you know we messed up real bad
* Everything is fucked
* I’m so sorry

(the dash-breaks are for indicating the end of a nested quote, since the forum now protects itself from neverending quote-cascades)


A lot of knee-jerk fearmongering (e.g. the Japanese markets stopped trading because IT WAS THE END OF THE DAY; they do this EVERY DAY at this time)

...but it is kinda smirk-inducing funny...in a black humour way...
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby MetricFurlong » 24 Jun 2016, 19:30

empath wrote:If the UK drops the EU...and consequently loses the ECHR, it would be the perfect opportunity for people to petition their Members of Parliament to see about presenting a similar member's bill in the House of Commons for the UK's OWN law books...and why not make that pending law even better? Again, a perfect opportunity to exert what little influence you have on government and persuade legislators to make laws that the people want.

See, the problem there is that the Tories already have a British Bill Of Rights in the works. This has been something of a pet project of Theresa May (our Home Secretary) for a while. The last draft of the bill that got shown was not terribly encouragement, due to a rather concerning amount of vagueness in defining 'extremism' and what exactly it allowed to combat that. Given that the current government has also been pushing another somewhat concerning piece of information security legislation (nicknamed 'the snooper's charter' owing to the powers it grants the police and intelligence services to look into peoples online browsing and communication records) the right to privacy is also liable to be a cause for concern should this happen.

The other problem with losing the ECHR is that this would render most of the treaties that saw the successful resolution to the peace talks in NI becoming invalid, due to their terms. This is likely to have an impact on the NI reunification question, which has now been catapulted back into prominence.


Financially, realistically The UK is probably looking at another recession as a result of this. How long or how severe that's going to be is unclear, but it's looking all but inevitable that there's going to be one coming.

The political fallout is also going to be awkward. The Conservatives have always been very divide on Europe (both the campaigns leading up to this were dominated by Tories) and Cameron stepping down now is going to throw that divide right into the centre of things. How that's going to shake, if the part can even survive that, is anyone's guess at the moment.

In fact, for most of the political landscape the question "what the fuck do we do know?" is going to be a pressing one. And it may be a while before we get any clear answers. So yeah, you'll have to forgive us if we're not terribly optimistic about things.

My pseudonym is Ix wrote:You make a good point. I was going more for the angle of "these people have seen the same evidence I have and come to the same conclusion and they're STILL going the other way?? They must be idiots!!!"... but your interpretation makes more sense, if I'm honest. Apologies if I offended.

No offence taken. As I said I don't, I don't disagree with the point that calling people idiots if they disagree isn't a great strategy. I just didn't think that was the best way of putting that across.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby fantôme » 25 Jun 2016, 03:18

So apparently it is now open season on racism in England, this morning I've already overheard two separate people making openly racist remarks, and last night there was a group of drunks parading through town with a large union jack flag chanting "fuck Europe".

More and more, "English" and "racist" are becoming synonymous, as stereotyped by foreign countries, and now as felt by those of us living here. I'm actually ashamed of my nationality.

Also Europe has said no tying this up in red tape, get out now. I hope this means England gets kicked out of the football.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby MetricFurlong » 25 Jun 2016, 06:07

fantôme wrote:So apparently it is now open season on racism in England, this morning I've already overheard two separate people making openly racist remarks, and last night there was a group of drunks parading through town with a large union jack flag chanting "fuck Europe".

Yeah. This was pretty much inevitable, and unfortunately it's also likely to get worse as we go on from here.
Now, I fully acknowledge that plenty of people who voted leave probably weren't doing so out of xenophobic reasons. On the other hand, you'd have to be delusional to think that 'keep the immigrants out' wasn't still a significant motivating factor in the result. The more overtly racist and xenophobic groups know that full well, and to them this looks like vindication. So of course they're going to be emboldened in their displays: as far as they're concerned they won.

That by itself is bad, but there a couple of other factors that are likely to make this worse. For a start, there's the fact that this vote isn't actually likely to lead to significant anti-immigration policies being enacted. Daniel Hannan, one of the MEPs involved in the Leave campaign, admitted as much yesterday. Once the reality of that becomes clear, all the people who voted Out because they thought it would mean less foreigners coming in are not going to be happy. Particularly since, after all, they 'won', the 'voice of the people' spoke out against immigrants and yet it turns out the drawbridge isn't being pulled-up.

Finally, as I mentioned in my last post, we're going to have another recession on our hands. I don't think I need to explain why that makes this a really bad combination.



Maybe I'm wrong, and honestly I do hope I am, but I strongly suspect that this is just going to uglier as time passes.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Dutch guy » 25 Jun 2016, 08:00

fantôme wrote:Also Europe has said no tying this up in red tape, get out now. I hope this means England gets kicked out of the football.


Which is an utterly stupid point of view to have. Even "the devil himself" (As some seem to think of him) Nigel Farage has said (multiple times, during the entire campaign) that even if a Leave vote was cast, time should be taken to make sure the exit is clean for ALL parties involved. The EU head honchos like Juncker and Verhofstadt are pushing this "get out now" stupidity because they WANT Britain to crash and burn, they WANT this whole process to become a shambles. Simply to warn other countries to stay in line!

Here's a recent twitter message from MP Hannan for instance:
"Our partners in the EU should know that we will remain engaged. Taking back control of our laws doesn't mean walking away from our allies."

Doesn't that sound a lot more balanced and civil than the "get out now" policy being pushed by so many EU heads?

What happened is unprecedented. Rushing things is not going to help. Step 1 is setting up some timeline, and separation doesn't have to happen within 2 years. Britain could first take 5 years to work out how all of this is going to work before actually invoking article 50 to "make it official".


There is some serious spite happening on all sides which is NOT helping to make things work. The vote has been cast, now politicians should get on with it and make the process work.



I sincerely believe the current EU politicians really believe they are doing the right thing, I even think that the concept of the EU is not such a bad idea. I'm very much convinced however the EU in it's current form has lost all touch with what it's citizens actually want and has grown out of control of those citizens. Corrective action is needed or the whole thing will implode. And if it were implodes the current market unrest will be an amusing anecdote of history.


I haven't really posted here as I think my point of view will be rather unpopular. I'm very on the fence on the issue, but I think that as long as the exit is handled correctly from both sides (Not likely given the butt-hurt shown by many EU officials and British MPs alike) Britain WILL come out on top and better off. I'll just finish with a C.S. Lewis quote I saw quoted on the issue that I also find applicable to the current people who control EU policy.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Lord Chrusher » 25 Jun 2016, 09:14

Given Cameron's resignation, it would be counter productive for negotiations to begin in earnest until his replacement is in place in October.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 25 Jun 2016, 11:02

Well, it all just got a great deal more complicated. For values of "complicated" that equal "full-blown constitutional crisis."

It seems that the devolved legislatures may have a veto over withdrawing from the EU. Given that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, that means that Brexit may not even be possible, no matter what the voters, Westminster, or the PM say or do.

Honestly, at this point, I'm fairly convinced that this entire farce was Boris Johnson trying to get into 10 Downing by gambling with the fate of the entire country.

I mean, consider this:

- As I mentioned, leaving the EU may be impossible due to Holyrood and Stormont.
- All the Leave promises have already been revealed to be lies. No EU money for the NHS, no stopping immigration, huge economic downturn.
- Many people who voted for Brexit either didn't ever want to leave the EU, or have quickly changed their minds now that they've realized what it means.
- The referendum is non-binding, and the majority of MPs do not support Brexit.
- The petition for a second referendum is overflowing with signatures.

Which brings me to my predictions:

- Johnson is going to waltz into the PM's office.
- There will be no second referendum. That would be disastrous, even though I'm convinced the Remain side would win on a second try.
- There will be a national election within six months. The issue will not be Remain/Leave it will be Invoke Article 50/Refrain.
- Johnson, having achieved his goal of becoming PM, will pivot from Leave to Refrain. Not only is that the popular choice, it's the necessary one (given that Scotland and Northern Ireland will block any move to invoke), and I don't think he ever actually wanted to leave the EU. This has been a cynical ploy the entire time.
- The UK will likely remain in the EU, but its reputation, both in Europe and the rest of the world, will be in the mud. The EU will be severely destabilized and the UK may still go into recession.
- Scotland will have a second referendum, and Northern Ireland will have one as well.
- Scotland will leave the Union. I give Irish reunification a 50/50 chance of happening as well.

A right mess, in other words, and all because Boris really wanted to sit in the big chair.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby JustAName » 25 Jun 2016, 11:32

A lot of people I've been talking to in the ROI put reunification a lot lower than that, but otherwise, yeah.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 25 Jun 2016, 11:47

Well, they'd know better than I would. But reunification is the most disruptive possibility for Ireland, and I'm a natural-born pessimist. :(
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby I X » 25 Jun 2016, 11:59

Even if everyone were to agree, and Northern Ireland wanted to reunify with the Republic, I really don't think the money is there. Would the Republic want to take back the North? Sure, maybe, but I doubt we could afford it. The amount of admin and bureaucracy that would have to assimilate or work together, entire public services that are separate right now with separate regulations etc. (Example: electricity supply.)

Very likely some jobs would become obsolete, similar to the way the regional health services amalgamated 10+ years ago. This would either lead to loss of jobs (probably voluntary redundancy) or overstuffed public services that struggle to get things done.*

Maybe that's not the way it would happen ultimately. Maybe Ireland wouldn't try to drag NI properly into our systems, but at the end of the day they have to interact with our stuff at some level. I suppose there could be a much higher-level thing where Stormont just work with the Dáil to decide what they're doing and everything else stays as is. The problem is that this 'one Ireland' setup would amount to the literal end goal of entire political parties, so I feel if there's to be a real reunification then certain people won't allow it without some sort of homogenising process.

(I don't know enough about NI, this is coming mostly from a ROI perspective.)

*Even more than now, I suppose.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Darkflame » 25 Jun 2016, 14:05

I think England should now join up with somewhere else.
I vote Canada. We already share a queen and a healthcare philosophy, and I am willing to switch to a maple syrup based diet.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 25 Jun 2016, 15:14

In my opinion, you see, that the... OH LOOK IT'S A EURO FOOTBALL MATCH WALES VS NORTHERN IRELAND. WOOOOOO! GO WALES!!!!! :)

That's what today has been in Wales. Probably the only good thing that happened in the last three days was Wales qualifying for the European Football Quater Finals.


I live in a country that used to get a significant more amount of money back from being in the EU, and we weirdly voted to not have this. Because we're afraid of immigration and that the golden age of the British Empire will return and because we have forgotten how much London doesn't care for us.

There are probably good reasons to have left, I just haven't been told any beyond nostalgia and bigotry. Maybe wanting better control for immigration isn't being a bigot, but leaving the EU is not going to affect it. In fact, we'll lose a lot of a skilled workforce.

Personally, I am torn between wanting things to heal and wanting everything to burn in a fire just to spite the people I disagree with.

I am a bisexual Christian who voted stay in the referendum. If I was also a woman and had black skin or was of Islamic decent that I would win the Minority Bingo.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Amake » 25 Jun 2016, 15:26

According to this in-depth thing I read, not that I can judge how well they know their stuff but they seemed pretty confident, it's just mathematically impossible for the UK to actually leave the EU. It would be more feasible to dig a moat around the islands; less people would die and it would accomplish more. There just isn't enough goods and services to afford the move. Like a millennial living in their parents' basement, the only thing you could actually possibly do about it is go live in the woods, and if you're a country of 61 million people that's just not going to happen. According to this article.

The question, it posits, is only who's going to make themselves unpopular by telling the people that. Cameron apparently would resign as prime minister rather than bite that bullet, so we can see why no one wants to do it.

When I put it that way, it sounds like some kind of conspiracy theory. But it sure would be nice if it's true.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Darkflame » 26 Jun 2016, 05:53

You probably all know theres a big petition to invalidate the referendum.
3million signatures and counting.
Its unlikely to amount to anything, as you cant really retroactively change the rules even if they were poor to start with.

Anyway....apparently the petition was started by a pro-leave person who thought they would lose the vote;
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36634407

I find this hilarious.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 26 Jun 2016, 08:25

For the record Darkflame- that clause has always been in the referendum rules one way or the other, it's just a question of whether or not the government want to revoke it. I seem to remember someone telling me that it's a fairly standard clause that the EU slip into most of their.

Also empath- I enjoyed your post, and as for your historical clarifications:
- England as a sovereign state was established under Athelstan in 927 AD. The kingdom of Scotland is somewhat older (from 843), but ceased to be an independent state following the Act of Union in 1707.
- William the Conqueror invaded in 1066 but it's incorrect to say that Normandy ruled England or vice-versa; Normandy had CONQUERED England with a lot of help from the Bretons and Burgundians (and, indirectly, the Norse), and the King was for long thereafter referred to as 'King of England, Duke of Normandy' as two separate and concurrent titles... which were split on William's death before later reforming under his son Henry. The same trend of separate and distinct titles, without one being under the control of the other, was repeated when the Dutch King William of Orange usurped James II, and when George I of Hanover became king following the death of Anne.
- By the time of William's great-grandson Henry II during the late 12th century this collection of titles held by the monarch had expanded to include the Angevin empire- a collection of French duchies extending down to the Spanish border, as well as large chunks of the Celtic states. By around 1210 however, his son John (a la Robin Hood) had lost almost all French holdings, and so it was with the passing of the throne to his son Henry III in 1216 that England ceased to be part of a wider Angevin Empire and became a distinct Plantagenet Kingdom with strong claims to French thrones and duchies.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby empath » 26 Jun 2016, 14:57

Okay, an independent nation for EIGHT hundred years, instead of almost a thousand, then a member state of a continental 'community/union' for forty-ish.

I think my point still stands. ;)
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Lord Chrusher » 26 Jun 2016, 15:11

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:[W]e have forgotten how much London doesn't care for us.


I think in some quarters to vote Leave was to raise two figures towards London.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2016, 15:18

Parliment doesn't care outside of a 100 mile radius. Wales majorly fucked up. A commentary on the result said that it seems that a lot of the Welsh voters got influenced by the campaign of Brexit regarding BRITISH things. How WALES is affected wasn't as well known. So people in Wales voted for Britain, but also tied a noose around the neck of Wales.

So now we're in a position where we are solely reliant on a neighbour nation that has historically expressed how it wants us to piss off.,
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Hekla » 26 Jun 2016, 16:03

Wales's vote made me rather sad, having spent most of my childhood there. While my home county, Ceredigion, voted decidedly to remain, others like Powys, went the other way for some inexplicable reason. I understand some of the frustration in the valleys in the South, even if it's misplaced, but what did the EU do to Anglesea to deserve a leave vote‽ Maybe I'm underestimating the influence of the universities in Bangor and Aberytwyth, and maybe that's the only reason Ceredigion and Gwynedd voted to stay. And that makes me sad :(
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 27 Jun 2016, 04:26

Anglesey was extremely 50-50.

Anglesey is a place where people retire. Probably English retirees. The landscape is flat, akin to England. But you get the mountain views, so it's exciting. Maybe that's why people could have voted with English goggles.

So goodbye Wales' EU funding.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Ptangmatik » 28 Jun 2016, 15:06

A few things:

Sinn Fenn (The political party) of course immediately called for Northern Ireland to vote on leaving the UK, the DUP shot them down fairly quickly, I do worry that hotheads could start up the Troubles again, but it seems NI will be hanging around for the time being.

Scottish ministers can request permission to hold another referendum, the UK Prime minister doesn't necessarily have to grant the request. Tough call, could go either way depending on who takes over from Cameron.

I hadn't heard of Scotland, NI etc. having veto power, that would be lovely. I drove an hour to where I used to live to vote as I was still registered to vote there (and an hour back) and I voted Remain, I was quite disappointed that it went the other way, it does seem to have increased nativism across the globe.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Master Gunner » 28 Jun 2016, 15:28

While some of have brought up the possibility of the devolved legislatures blocking the exit, from what I've read, that's not possible.

The supposed means by which the devolved legislatures could block Brexit is that Westminster is not supposed to legislate in devolved matters, or change the power/scope of the devolved legislatures, without the consent of the devolved parliaments. The second piece is the important bit here, as the devolved legislatures are required to legislate according to EU regulations, so changing that would change invoke this "limitation".

However, those rules are actually just constitutional conventions - they have no legal weight in limiting the actions of the UK parliament. They'd be assholes to do it (and due to the agreements made after the Scottish referendum, they DO legally have to acknowledge being assholes, but that's it).

On top of that, invocation of Article 50 falls under the direct purview of the Prime Minister and the Crown to act in regards to foreign policy. Any vote in Parliament on the matter would have the same binding power as this referendum itself (that is, technically only "advisory", but political suicide to go against it).
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby korvys » 28 Jun 2016, 18:06

Disclaimer: this is my summarising something I read - please feel free to correct it.

I saw someone mention on Twitter that the Northern Ireland thing is more complicated than it looks. NI might not want to leave the UK or join back up with Ireland, but if they don't, and the UK leaves the EU, the UK will then share a land border with the EU, a region it is no longer part of.

Since you could travel from the continent to Ireland freely, and from NI to Great Britain freely, and vice versa, without some kind of agreement, that border would have to be treated the same as any other from inside to outside the EU.

Apparently the ability to travel freely over that border (for work, for family, etc) was very important for peace in NI, and having that restricted is likely to increase tensions again.
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Re: So... About that Significant World Event that Happened..

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 28 Jun 2016, 18:35

Thing is, Master Gunner, that "constitutional convention" doesn't just mean "thing we usually do, but don't need to." They have legal force. They can be ignored, yes, but that would take actual legislation being passed in order to do it. The UK government can't just decide to ignore it without putting it to Parliament.

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