The voxlunch stream shelter thread

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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Phailhammer » 14 Nov 2016, 13:53

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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Delanofilms » 14 Nov 2016, 13:59

Jesus Christ this has gotten absolutely absurd. This isn't even a discussion with a goal anymore, if it ever was. This just seems like stubborn rams bashing their heads together for spectacle and taking pride in being aggressive and dismissive, with a few bystanders who'd like some kind of resolution.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Elomin Sha » 14 Nov 2016, 14:00

No pride here.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby ReilaOda » 14 Nov 2016, 14:26

Avistew wrote:I was following this thread with interest, and suddenly, a post saying that Wraith is banned temporarily, after he's agreed to disagree with one of the posters, and been from what I could see no worse than several people who disagreed with him and were not banned. Locking the thread would have been a bad idea, but this was even worse. It makes it look like anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion here is silenced. If you can't take care of the forums while Desert bus is going on, shut down the whole forum for cause of Desert Bus or something. This reaction just looked like the kind of things Wraith was talking about of Trump voters getting assaulted without any concern about why they voted for Trump, because they voted differently so of course they must be racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic and so on, which clearly isn't actually the case, and even if it was, assaulting them would not be okay.

Definitely the wrong call here. I sent him a PM in solidarity but since I have no idea if he can read PMs or respond (and because I don't want to just state my solidarity in private like I'm ashamed of it or something), I thought I'd state it here too for the record.

Now if the problem is that this is the wrong thread for the current discussion, maybe a solution would have been to create a new thread and direct people to it.



I disagree with you wholeheartedly that him being banned for being what the mod perceived as highly abrasive demonstrates anything. He got under peoples skin, which he is allowed to do, but when this thread was never about his opinion, or anyone's opinion on a safe space, it was the wrong place to do that. As with all things, ask for a discussion, propose a debate. Don't just go around calling people tumblerina's without evidence. Thus he got smacked for it. *Shrug*

(I also freely admit I made such an accusation and am prepared to be punted just the same way in the interest of fairness)

Accusations without evidence are a good reason to be banned regardless of the issue.

If anyone wants to discuss the stream shelter on another thread, or safe spaces in general I'm more then happy to do so. Fire away, but I'm going to be making a seperate thread for the shelter, and it's related discussion so that we're not getting this mixed up any further. After my shift.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Delanofilms » 14 Nov 2016, 15:58

Alright, I've got to get this off my chest.

First: The intent, or rather the percieved intent of The Stream Shelter seems to have been skewed. Alex himself said The Shelter wasn't meant to be a place for people to bury their heads in the sand, nor a place where dissenting opinions aren't allowed: rather, it was meant to be a safe and generally calming area for people to come and decompress from the initial shock of Trump's election. However, he also made clear that was only stage one. He said that as the initial shock passed, The Shelter would have to morph and shift into a zone for civil discussion in an attempt to better understand why these events have taken place and to learn from them what we can: to better understand the reasoning and viewpoints of those who chose him, while maintaining a non-judgmental and calming atmosphere for those who need it for whatever reason.

Second: I maintain a small container garden. Part of its purpose is growing food that I can't buy locally. Part of its purpose is for my own enjoyment, as I enjoy the process of growing plants and find it inherently rewarding. But another part of its purpose is as a nice space for me to enjoy and cool down when my brain is wracking itself against some issue or dilemma. In practicing drawing and other artistic endeavors, I've found that trying to force my way through a block in a project can sometimes work in my favor, but more often than not it makes the struggle worse than when I take 10-15 minutes to clear my mind and come back to the task with fresh eyes. I've struggled with PTSD for about 11 years now, which presents as pathological thought patterns and escalating mental/emotional instability. However, I also work as a chef in an extremely stressful environment. There are many scenarios where it is appropriate and helpful to force myself to focus on something else in order to more effectively address the problem before me. However, for the sake of my work there are many more scenarios where my only option is to knuckle down and push hard through a difficult obstacle, seeking refuge after the fact to collect myself and make it to the next day. These are coping mechanisms that I have developed by enduring hardship. I use time in my garden to cope with mental/emotional duress, the same as I now do with The Stream Shelter. I could abuse either one and spend all day avoiding my problems. The same is true of any coping mechanism. The issue repeatedly raised doesn't seem to be "you need to develop coping mechanisms and face your problems," but rather "I don't like the coping mechanism you've chosen to address your problems with." Claiming that The Stream Shelter isn't the "correct" way to cope seems akin to saying one shouldn't take the occasional break from work to step outside and clear one's head before returning to the task at hand.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Elomin Sha » 14 Nov 2016, 16:23

I'm not sure you read the entirity of what my posts contain. Everything gets explained the later it goes. I should have explained better in the beginning but I didn't think it would blow up as it did. But it did and it went from there.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Sieg Reyu » 14 Nov 2016, 20:00

ReilaOda wrote:
Avistew wrote:I was following this thread with interest, and suddenly, a post saying that Wraith is banned temporarily, after he's agreed to disagree with one of the posters, and been from what I could see no worse than several people who disagreed with him and were not banned. Locking the thread would have been a bad idea, but this was even worse. It makes it look like anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion here is silenced. If you can't take care of the forums while Desert bus is going on, shut down the whole forum for cause of Desert Bus or something. This reaction just looked like the kind of things Wraith was talking about of Trump voters getting assaulted without any concern about why they voted for Trump, because they voted differently so of course they must be racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic and so on, which clearly isn't actually the case, and even if it was, assaulting them would not be okay.

Definitely the wrong call here. I sent him a PM in solidarity but since I have no idea if he can read PMs or respond (and because I don't want to just state my solidarity in private like I'm ashamed of it or something), I thought I'd state it here too for the record.

Now if the problem is that this is the wrong thread for the current discussion, maybe a solution would have been to create a new thread and direct people to it.



I disagree with you wholeheartedly that him being banned for being what the mod perceived as highly abrasive demonstrates anything. He got under peoples skin, which he is allowed to do, but when this thread was never about his opinion, or anyone's opinion on a safe space, it was the wrong place to do that. As with all things, ask for a discussion, propose a debate. Don't just go around calling people tumblerina's without evidence. Thus he got smacked for it. *Shrug*

(I also freely admit I made such an accusation and am prepared to be punted just the same way in the interest of fairness)

Accusations without evidence are a good reason to be banned regardless of the issue.

If anyone wants to discuss the stream shelter on another thread, or safe spaces in general I'm more then happy to do so. Fire away, but I'm going to be making a seperate thread for the shelter, and it's related discussion so that we're not getting this mixed up any further. After my shift.

The LRR forums has a long and storied history of threads going off topic and turning in to discussions of something completely off topic. Some of the longest threads here were created in response to another thread going incredibly off topic. Like the aptly named Hijack Thread. So yeah, I think the appropriate response should be creating a new thread and let that discussion happen there.

I think its great that you feel that you are equally to blame, but I find it a bit bizarre because it implies that either one of you did naything wrong. You had a debate. It got heated. Thats how things go. And that you think either of you should be punished is even more bizarre.

I mean you both made great points. And I think the butting of heads comes down to a difference of perception. Like the idea of tough love. Tough love works when the person giving it understands the issue.. Telling someone with depression to "suck it up" isn't tough love. From the sound of it, that is what some of you faced under the guise of Tough Love, but really its just a cruel reminder of what you can't have or can't do. Even if the person means well, which they usually do, it can really hurt. Tough love is telling someone forcefully to just "fucking go see a therapist already" or "take your fucking meds" or "get outside, go for a fucking walk." Maybe giving them a firm shake of the shoulders. These are things that the lovee are capable are doing things they should be doing, things that can help, but perhaps the lovee hasn't been doing or doesn't want to do. Or maybe an extreme circumstance, dragging someone kicking and screaming to a hospital when they get suicidal.

This is probably a little personal but fuck it, overstepping lines is what I do worst. You mentioned being a transwoman. So lets talk about that. I don't know the details of your transition but lets assume for a moment that I do, and we'll pretend that whatever I'm saying applies directly to you. Lets go back to when you first started experiencing gender dismorphia, or perhaps when you first started understanding that what you were feeling wasn't 'normal.' I imagine for a while you kept it to yourself, just faking everything was fine. And maybe you told a few people, maybe anonymous people online. Let's pretend it was a close friend, and they were understanding. And they were supportive. At first. They were a listening post for your problems. Buts been a couple of years since you've told them, and even longer since you started feeling this way. And you've done nothing about it. You're still a man in your day to day life. So they start telling you to go see a Therapist or whoever you go to talk to about beginning your transition. And they hound you about you pushing you to do it until you do. That's tough love. And if that is where you are currently, then I am telling you that you need to speak with someone professional about it. Maybe you're self medicating your HRT but than can be incredibly dangerous, you should talk to someone. It probably seems super scary and it is. But you shouldn't be scared. Not because there is nothing to be afraid of, but because Image
(I think that was one of the points Wraith was trying to make earlier.) If it seems overwhelming, or are worried about getting a therapist who is just going to tell you to do deal with it, then put in some legwork. Google or ask around about a therapist that understands your battle. If you only focuse on the work cause scenario, instead of working towards eliminating that scenario you're not going to get anyway.

So let's keep going. Lets say instead that your friend told you to tell your parents. While this is something you should do at some point, its sketchy as tough love. There are a lot of variables that go in to whether or not the time is right. Clearly at this point, you know who you are, so that much is done. But maybe your parents are super SUPER conservative, and you're still living at home. And you know that no matter what you do, how you break the news, you are going to get kicked out of the house. To be honest, you are under no obligation to tell them, they can fuck right the fuck off. But as long as you live at home, you're going to have to postpone or hide your transition which can be super stressful which isn't healthy, so the better avenue is to push you to get out of the house. That way you can break the news right before you leave with your stuff fully packed and you can give them the double deuce as you walk out the door. But perhaps your parents are liberal. And your insurance is through them. You really need to tell them so you can get to a professional as mentioned above. Those are just two scenarios out of an uncountable amount. Which really illustrates the point that the person giving the tough love needs to fully understand the issue.

So you finally tell your parents. They're fairly moderate. They still love you, but they don't get it. They're shocked, your mom starts crying, asking what she did wrong, your father says he failed as a parent. They cry about for a few days but they start to cope. They think this is a phase or something they can fix so they tell you to just be happy with yourself as you are. Or maybe they send you to one of those "Pray the Gay Away" style camps. Fuck. That. Shit. And fuck them. Fuck 'em to death, to borrow a line from South Park.



When I first head the Alex Steacy talk about the storm shelter, I had a knee jerk cringe reaction to it, for the reasons expresed by Elomin and Wraith already. Having read through the thread, I feel I understand it better. Its not for me, but I get it. I think it was just poorly branded. The name Storm Shelter brings forth images of people hiding away until everything blows over. I live in an area prone to Tornadoes. You don't go down in to the basement until the Tornado Sirens start and you don't get out until its over. You don't leave to go to work or play video games. And if Trump getting elected getting elected is the storm, it implies people won't be coming out for four years. It sends the wrong message. I mean yeah sure you can call it whatever you want, and it has a catchy name, but a name like The Breakroom conjures the image of getting away from shitty customers and unwinding for a bit before you have to go back to the frontlines. Maybe you think changing the name is dumb or unjustified, but imagine it was called The Scaredy Cat Hidey place for Crybabies Who Can't Face Reality. I'm sure you can agree that that name doesn't represent the group. I'd like to nominate The "This Hour Sponsored by Dairy Queen®, 'Hot Eats, Cool Treats" All-The-Chill Zone.' Rolls off the tongue.




There are three ways to deal with Stress, burn, release, ignore. Two are healthy, one isn't. People like me and Wraith tend to burn our stress we metabolize it in to raw energy and use that energy, He likes to post incredibly long facebook rants. Sometimes I write, sometimes I work on sessions for the D&D campaigns I DM, but my favorite thing to do is brainstorm character ideas. I usually probably use that energy to do something more physical, but it is what it is.. Other people tend to meditate and reflect on the issue. "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change," and all that. Reminding yourself that the world isn't complete shit and suck. These are both valid ways of dealing with stress, and while people tend towrds one or the other, I feel like they do the other on occasion even if they don't realize it. I think it depends on how the initial stress makes you feel. When I get angry stressed, which is how I normally react, is when I burn the stress. When I get sad or worried stress, like when I get dumped, then I just listen to relaxing music and reflect on the fact that dying alone isn't as bad as its cracked up to be.

The problem is, when people see others reacting to stress in different ways, it seems to them like the other person is ignoring their stress. Which is the unhealthy one if you couldn't guess. I don't think anyone in this fanbase, and most of the people in the nation at large, is happy with this election as a whole. By the end most people were voting against the other candidate than for their own candidate. My roommate voted for Trump and he wasn't happy about it, he told me the next morning his first thought was "Fuck, I helped this happen." Personally I voted third party so I could absolve myself of any wrong doing no matter how the election went. If I had to vote, for one of the two, gun to my head, I would have voted Trump as well. Not because I thought he was better, but because my life motto is "Embrace Chaos" and Clinton would have been just bad enough for everything to be the same for the next four years, whereas Trump could be the shitshow of a President that we as a country need to find a paperclip and stick it in to the little hole in the back of the US for 15 seconds. But that is neither here nor there The point I was trying to get to was, we're all in this together, we're all dealing this in our own ways, so long as we're dealing and not hiding. And unless they're not ignoring it, pretending everything is fine, we should accept each others way of handling with this.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Sieg Reyu » 14 Nov 2016, 20:03

Jesus fuck I was working on that for like 4 hours.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby ReilaOda » 14 Nov 2016, 20:53

Sieg Reyu wrote:
ReilaOda wrote:
Avistew wrote:I was following this thread with interest, and suddenly, a post saying that Wraith is banned temporarily, after he's agreed to disagree with one of the posters, and been from what I could see no worse than several people who disagreed with him and were not banned. Locking the thread would have been a bad idea, but this was even worse. It makes it look like anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion here is silenced. If you can't take care of the forums while Desert bus is going on, shut down the whole forum for cause of Desert Bus or something. This reaction just looked like the kind of things Wraith was talking about of Trump voters getting assaulted without any concern about why they voted for Trump, because they voted differently so of course they must be racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic and so on, which clearly isn't actually the case, and even if it was, assaulting them would not be okay.

Definitely the wrong call here. I sent him a PM in solidarity but since I have no idea if he can read PMs or respond (and because I don't want to just state my solidarity in private like I'm ashamed of it or something), I thought I'd state it here too for the record.

Now if the problem is that this is the wrong thread for the current discussion, maybe a solution would have been to create a new thread and direct people to it.



I disagree with you wholeheartedly that him being banned for being what the mod perceived as highly abrasive demonstrates anything. He got under peoples skin, which he is allowed to do, but when this thread was never about his opinion, or anyone's opinion on a safe space, it was the wrong place to do that. As with all things, ask for a discussion, propose a debate. Don't just go around calling people tumblerina's without evidence. Thus he got smacked for it. *Shrug*

(I also freely admit I made such an accusation and am prepared to be punted just the same way in the interest of fairness)

Accusations without evidence are a good reason to be banned regardless of the issue.

If anyone wants to discuss the stream shelter on another thread, or safe spaces in general I'm more then happy to do so. Fire away, but I'm going to be making a seperate thread for the shelter, and it's related discussion so that we're not getting this mixed up any further. After my shift.

The LRR forums has a long and storied history of threads going off topic and turning in to discussions of something completely off topic. Some of the longest threads here were created in response to another thread going incredibly off topic. Like the aptly named Hijack Thread. So yeah, I think the appropriate response should be creating a new thread and let that discussion happen there.

I think its great that you feel that you are equally to blame, but I find it a bit bizarre because it implies that either one of you did naything wrong. You had a debate. It got heated. Thats how things go. And that you think either of you should be punished is even more bizarre.

I mean you both made great points. And I think the butting of heads comes down to a difference of perception. Like the idea of tough love. Tough love works when the person giving it understands the issue.. Telling someone with depression to "suck it up" isn't tough love. From the sound of it, that is what some of you faced under the guise of Tough Love, but really its just a cruel reminder of what you can't have or can't do. Even if the person means well, which they usually do, it can really hurt. Tough love is telling someone forcefully to just "fucking go see a therapist already" or "take your fucking meds" or "get outside, go for a fucking walk." Maybe giving them a firm shake of the shoulders. These are things that the lovee are capable are doing things they should be doing, things that can help, but perhaps the lovee hasn't been doing or doesn't want to do. Or maybe an extreme circumstance, dragging someone kicking and screaming to a hospital when they get suicidal.

This is probably a little personal but fuck it, overstepping lines is what I do worst. You mentioned being a transwoman. So lets talk about that. I don't know the details of your transition but lets assume for a moment that I do, and we'll pretend that whatever I'm saying applies directly to you. Lets go back to when you first started experiencing gender dismorphia, or perhaps when you first started understanding that what you were feeling wasn't 'normal.' I imagine for a while you kept it to yourself, just faking everything was fine. And maybe you told a few people, maybe anonymous people online. Let's pretend it was a close friend, and they were understanding. And they were supportive. At first. They were a listening post for your problems. Buts been a couple of years since you've told them, and even longer since you started feeling this way. And you've done nothing about it. You're still a man in your day to day life. So they start telling you to go see a Therapist or whoever you go to talk to about beginning your transition. And they hound you about you pushing you to do it until you do. That's tough love. And if that is where you are currently, then I am telling you that you need to speak with someone professional about it. Maybe you're self medicating your HRT but than can be incredibly dangerous, you should talk to someone. It probably seems super scary and it is. But you shouldn't be scared. Not because there is nothing to be afraid of, but because Image
(I think that was one of the points Wraith was trying to make earlier.) If it seems overwhelming, or are worried about getting a therapist who is just going to tell you to do deal with it, then put in some legwork. Google or ask around about a therapist that understands your battle. If you only focuse on the work cause scenario, instead of working towards eliminating that scenario you're not going to get anyway.

So let's keep going. Lets say instead that your friend told you to tell your parents. While this is something you should do at some point, its sketchy as tough love. There are a lot of variables that go in to whether or not the time is right. Clearly at this point, you know who you are, so that much is done. But maybe your parents are super SUPER conservative, and you're still living at home. And you know that no matter what you do, how you break the news, you are going to get kicked out of the house. To be honest, you are under no obligation to tell them, they can fuck right the fuck off. But as long as you live at home, you're going to have to postpone or hide your transition which can be super stressful which isn't healthy, so the better avenue is to push you to get out of the house. That way you can break the news right before you leave with your stuff fully packed and you can give them the double deuce as you walk out the door. But perhaps your parents are liberal. And your insurance is through them. You really need to tell them so you can get to a professional as mentioned above. Those are just two scenarios out of an uncountable amount. Which really illustrates the point that the person giving the tough love needs to fully understand the issue.

So you finally tell your parents. They're fairly moderate. They still love you, but they don't get it. They're shocked, your mom starts crying, asking what she did wrong, your father says he failed as a parent. They cry about for a few days but they start to cope. They think this is a phase or something they can fix so they tell you to just be happy with yourself as you are. Or maybe they send you to one of those "Pray the Gay Away" style camps. Fuck. That. Shit. And fuck them. Fuck 'em to death, to borrow a line from South Park.



When I first head the Alex Steacy talk about the storm shelter, I had a knee jerk cringe reaction to it, for the reasons expresed by Elomin and Wraith already. Having read through the thread, I feel I understand it better. Its not for me, but I get it. I think it was just poorly branded. The name Storm Shelter brings forth images of people hiding away until everything blows over. I live in an area prone to Tornadoes. You don't go down in to the basement until the Tornado Sirens start and you don't get out until its over. You don't leave to go to work or play video games. And if Trump getting elected getting elected is the storm, it implies people won't be coming out for four years. It sends the wrong message. I mean yeah sure you can call it whatever you want, and it has a catchy name, but a name like The Breakroom conjures the image of getting away from shitty customers and unwinding for a bit before you have to go back to the frontlines. Maybe you think changing the name is dumb or unjustified, but imagine it was called The Scaredy Cat Hidey place for Crybabies Who Can't Face Reality. I'm sure you can agree that that name doesn't represent the group. I'd like to nominate The "This Hour Sponsored by Dairy Queen®, 'Hot Eats, Cool Treats" All-The-Chill Zone.' Rolls off the tongue.




There are three ways to deal with Stress, burn, release, ignore. Two are healthy, one isn't. People like me and Wraith tend to burn our stress we metabolize it in to raw energy and use that energy, He likes to post incredibly long facebook rants. Sometimes I write, sometimes I work on sessions for the D&D campaigns I DM, but my favorite thing to do is brainstorm character ideas. I usually probably use that energy to do something more physical, but it is what it is.. Other people tend to meditate and reflect on the issue. "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change," and all that. Reminding yourself that the world isn't complete shit and suck. These are both valid ways of dealing with stress, and while people tend towrds one or the other, I feel like they do the other on occasion even if they don't realize it. I think it depends on how the initial stress makes you feel. When I get angry stressed, which is how I normally react, is when I burn the stress. When I get sad or worried stress, like when I get dumped, then I just listen to relaxing music and reflect on the fact that dying alone isn't as bad as its cracked up to be.

The problem is, when people see others reacting to stress in different ways, it seems to them like the other person is ignoring their stress. Which is the unhealthy one if you couldn't guess. I don't think anyone in this fanbase, and most of the people in the nation at large, is happy with this election as a whole. By the end most people were voting against the other candidate than for their own candidate. My roommate voted for Trump and he wasn't happy about it, he told me the next morning his first thought was "Fuck, I helped this happen." Personally I voted third party so I could absolve myself of any wrong doing no matter how the election went. If I had to vote, for one of the two, gun to my head, I would have voted Trump as well. Not because I thought he was better, but because my life motto is "Embrace Chaos" and Clinton would have been just bad enough for everything to be the same for the next four years, whereas Trump could be the shitshow of a President that we as a country need to find a paperclip and stick it in to the little hole in the back of the US for 15 seconds. But that is neither here nor there The point I was trying to get to was, we're all in this together, we're all dealing this in our own ways, so long as we're dealing and not hiding. And unless they're not ignoring it, pretending everything is fine, we should accept each others way of handling with this.



Can I just say how much I dig this response? Very well written, I appreciate that you took the time to explain that.

I think I want to take some of the ideas about branding further and work with those. These are all great points. I find it expresses a lot of what I wanted to say. That I get where Wraith was coming from, just my own paladin complex got in the way.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 15 Nov 2016, 08:32

Thank you, Sieg, for injecting some sanity back into proceedings. Y'all, this is what happens when you actually try and sympathise with your opponents- it actually GETS you both somewhere.

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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 08:50

Well, it's like I always say, "SANITY . . . is for the WEEK!" and since it was Monday, some one had to do it. Expect it to get weird again come Saturday, though.





I might have got that line wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xCdNPltksc
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Elomin Sha » 15 Nov 2016, 14:04

You mean weak.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 14:05

Elomin Sha wrote:You mean weak.
That's the one!
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby empath » 15 Nov 2016, 15:54

Elomin Sha wrote:You mean weak.


Actually I kinda like the pun; we might even adopt that as a slogan "Stream Shelter: Sanity is for the Week! (YMMV after 7 days)". ;)
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Elomin Sha » 15 Nov 2016, 16:17

CURSES! My personal auto-correct misses a pun!

Oh, wait. I hate puns. I threaten them with straws.
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Re: The voxlunch stream shelter thread

Postby Graham » 15 Nov 2016, 17:03

As someone who can lock threads, I'm just gonna to do that.
Any mod feel free to ping me next time.

I'd recommend starting another thread for organizing the shelter streams—this is obviously well beyond that.

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