Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby jadamelio » 15 Nov 2016, 13:25

I gotcha, random is definitely the easiest way to go.

Favoritism can be mechanically eliminated by having something like fatigue or max missions. Also shorter and diverse missions should give more people a shot at doing something.

It's not a perfect idea, but it has some interesting potential
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 13:40

It sounds like you're talking about multiple teams during one stream. I was thinking a three hour stream, with one team for the week. Teams would be known by the chat ahead of time, those who wish would submit suggestions for The Villian, The Plot, The Location/Setting cirucumstances, and Plot Twists, or Challenges tailored to the team for the week. Those would get thrown together and we would see what happens.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby jadamelio » 15 Nov 2016, 14:07

Since a lot of this is improvised story, I would lean toward the shorter form style that is used with improv. Multiple teams means more variety, which means you can find what works and doesn't faster.

Your format is totally fine, I'm just proposing a way to push the idea further.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 14:10

Mutants and Masterminds doesn't really lend itself to adventures that short. Other systems might. Savage Worlds maybe?
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 15 Nov 2016, 14:11

I thought I'd post this here, regarding the banning. It's a theoretical/hypothetical question.


I know this comes late in what Wraith and Fayili were saying about being a Mod and looking at what is going on. I'm not sure how others would think with this, but thought it was as good a time to bring it up.

When Fayili responded to me with the question she wasn't acting as a mod but as herself. Fair, no issue with that. Is it possible to later on to come back with an emotional attachment to the thread and act as a Mod?

Due to past issues and reactions (modding one post and not others), I'm not sure how critical certain reactions have been. Not a dig. An observation.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 14:30

For real, can we agree that Wraith should be unbanned?
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby JustAName » 15 Nov 2016, 14:38

Elomin Sha wrote:When Fayili responded to me with the question she wasn't acting as a mod but as herself. Fair, no issue with that. Is it possible to later on to come back with an emotional attachment to the thread and act as a Mod?


I'm not certain I'm parsing your comment here correctly, Elomin. I have been trying to act as impartially as possible (though I will admit it's not super possible). Wraith told me that I didn't have to be impartial, but I have been trying to anyway.

I wanted to lock the thread. I said I would before I realised that I could not, and that was incredibly shortsighted of me. After that, however, I believed I made it clear that I would take action against anyone perpetuating turmoil while the crew was otherwise occupied.

I ended up only banning Wraith because he immediately attacked another poster, he had already been reported for his first post in that thread (by another forum veteran), and nobody else continued to post in the same tone thereafter.

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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 15 Nov 2016, 15:22

True, you are trying, as I have said I think sometimes you are a little short-sighted when trying to do the right thing.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 15:35

I want to argue every point but the forums keep crashing while I'm trying to source my shit and I feel like it might be a sign that it would be utterly pointless.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 16:37

Ah fuck it, who am I kidding, I don't listen to signs.

I feel like really only one point needs to be made, but I'll go with two. 1. The entire point that Wraith was trying to make is that people are running from their problems and shutting out anything they don't like. And the fact that someone reported his first post, when he was being civil just because it was contradictory, PROVES his point.

And Reila admitted to getting as hotheaded as Wraith was. So yes, someone else did thatke that tone. And look. The conversation ended amicably. He didn't "Immediately attack someone else," someone responded to a response he made on the page before and so he responded back.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Graham » 15 Nov 2016, 17:10

FYI: Locking the other thread would have been the correct course of action, but since Fayili can't lock threads—which... I don't understand and am going to look into—with limited options, I frankly think they made the right call.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 17:39

Man ilu Graham, but you got FAAAR more important things than to bother with us knuckleheads. No one's on fire yet. Though I would like to get your perspective on why a ban was necessary, once you're down with all the Desert Bus stuff is done, of course. So like, February.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 15 Nov 2016, 18:04

Sieg Reyu wrote:Okay, so the part in italics, is this similar to what you experienced as 'tough love?' Or are you willing to give examples? The stuff I bolded, how do you feel about them? Would you consider them to be effective or a good thing to do?


90% of the "tough love" I've experienced is some variation on what you put in italics. It's an excuse for bullying and cruelty, for diminishing and minimizing. When I hear "tough love," that's what I immediately think of.

However, what you bolded is little better from my perspective. While those (probably) come from a place of wanting to help, and are much more useful solutions, it isn't the intent or the solutions that I object most to. What I object to are the tone and the presumption.

I object to the hostile tone, to the "tough" part of "tough love." It's unnecessarily hostile, is often harmful (for instance, that attitude will get resistance from me; I will never do something if it's presented to me that way), and comes from a place of "knowing better than you do."

Which brings me to my second objection: presumption. Where does the person giving "tough love" get off pulling that high-minded, superior "I know what's best and you don't" attitude? It's an absolute steamrolling of the person who is struggling's autonomy and personhood. And that goes double when the person pushing "tough love" doesn't even know the person they're pushing it at. It may - may - be appropriate to be pushy with a friend or family member. But to someone you don't know on the internet? Absolutely not. The presumption of that is mind-boggling to me. It's the same as a person walking up to someone with a chronic physical illness, and suggesting, out of nowhere, a bunch of "cures" they read on the internet somewhere. The only possible response to that sort of behaviour is "Who are you, exactly? Leave me alone and mind your own business. Because how I deal with this is none of yours."

I will say this. You say you're seeing a therapist, preumably to talk about your problems. That is good, that is healthy. You are taking steps to fix the problems. Now imagine that instead of going to see a therapist, you just decided to ignore your issues and hide from them. Would you consider that as unhealthy?


Of course seeking treatment or whatever is better than not. That is in no way the issue. That has never been my objection. Again, my objections are the hostile way that these things are presented in the name of "tough love," and the utter presumption of butting into my business, telling me what to do and what not to do.

And again... consider that the Stream Shelter is dealing with things in a healthy, productive way for some people. Maybe not you. But for them? How do you know it's not exactly the sort of "addressing things head on" that you encourage? Why do you presume to know more about them than they do? In that situation, wouldn't the "tough love" of telling them to cut it out and deal with their problems the way you do be actively harmful? Wouldn't that be hostile? Wouldn't that steamroll their autonomy?
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 15 Nov 2016, 21:31

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:And again... consider that the Stream Shelter is dealing with things in a healthy, productive way for some people. Maybe not you. But for them? How do you know it's not exactly the sort of "addressing things head on" that you encourage? Why do you presume to know more about them than they do? In that situation, wouldn't the "tough love" of telling them to cut it out and deal with their problems the way you do be actively harmful? Wouldn't that be hostile? Wouldn't that steamroll their autonomy?
I just want to make this clear first thing first. I am completely ok with the stream as I understand it at the moment. I plan on checking it out firsthand after DB, and my opinion might change at that point, but from what I understand, its good. My only concern with it at the moment is the name, as I find Storm Shelter paints the wrong picture, and its why I reacted negatively to begin with. I like Eye of the Storm. A place in the middle of turmoil that is calm. I understand if it comes across as too tumultuous, but its just a suggestion.

My dog in this race is bridging the gap, healing the divide. I don't need to point out that quite a bit f friction was created, and I want to fix that. Because that is what I do, because I have nothing better to do. We don't need to agree with each other, but I feel we should come to understand one another.

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:
Sieg Reyu wrote:Okay, so the part in italics, is this similar to what you experienced as 'tough love?' Or are you willing to give examples? The stuff I bolded, how do you feel about them? Would you consider them to be effective or a good thing to do?


90% of the "tough love" I've experienced is some variation on what you put in italics. It's an excuse for bullying and cruelty, for diminishing and minimizing. When I hear "tough love," that's what I immediately think of.
I figured as much, and yeah, that shit sucks. Did I ever tell you about the time my mom abandoned me in the middle of nowhere, five miles form town because I refused to learn how to drive? You see, what happened was my mom abandoned me in the middle of nowhere, five miles form town because I refused to learn how to drive. (I can give you the full story if you're interested) See I wasn't emtionally prepared, thinking about it made me stress. Eventually I realized that the reason it stressed me out is because I sat in the back seat while my mom taught "taught" my brother to drive. Just witnessing it was so stressful that it made me want to bale out of a speeding van on to a highway. Once I figured out that, I got my grandma to teach me and it went fine.

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:However, what you bolded is little better from my perspective. While those (probably) come from a place of wanting to help, and are much more useful solutions, it isn't the intent or the solutions that I object most to. What I object to are the tone and the presumption.

I object to the hostile tone, to the "tough" part of "tough love." It's unnecessarily hostile, is often harmful (for instance, that attitude will get resistance from me; I will never do something if it's presented to me that way), and comes from a place of "knowing better than you do."
So one thing I didn't do a good job of explaining, tough love isn't a starting point. Its a nuclear option. If you are having problems with a single game crashing, your first step isn't going to be to completely reinstall your OS unless you are a crazy person. You start with basic steps and you escalate until that is your only option left. Now lets say you've got a person who is having that issue and they keep piddling around repeating the same steps over and over and they don't want to escalate because they are scared of the hassle associated reinstalling Windows. Someone needs to give them the boot to the booty to get what needs to be done, or else they're not going to ever going to get to enjoy that game. which brings me to my next point


Arclight_Dynamo wrote:Which brings me to my second objection: presumption. Where does the person giving "tough love" get off pulling that high-minded, superior "I know what's best and you don't" attitude? It's an absolute steamrolling of the person who is struggling's autonomy and personhood. And that goes double when the person pushing "tough love" doesn't even know the person they're pushing it at. It may - may - be appropriate to be pushy with a friend or family member. But to someone you don't know on the internet? Absolutely not. The presumption of that is mind-boggling to me. It's the same as a person walking up to someone with a chronic physical illness, and suggesting, out of nowhere, a bunch of "cures" they read on the internet somewhere. The only possible response to that sort of behaviour is "Who are you, exactly? Leave me alone and mind your own business. Because how I deal with this is none of yours."
I recently had computer issues and shopped around trying to find a solution. I got tons of suggestions on how to fix it. Not one of them helped me fix the issue. In fact many of the solutions I was offered were things I already stated that i had tried. However, attempting those helped me stumble upon the actual issue, a temperature sensor is off, so my computer didn't realize it was getting hot so my water cooler wasn't kicking in. See, I'm going to let you in on the big secret. Most advice is terrible. The thing is, when its innocuous, and its wrong its no big deal. If someone tells you to perform an ip release renew to fix a game crashing, sure. There is a 0.01% chance that it will fix the issue, but maybe it worked for them. And it takes five seconds, so no big deal. No big deal. But when drops the harsh truth that you need to reinstall and it doesn't work, then you've wasted hours of time. And when it could have been resolved with a video driver reinstall, yeah, its bad advice. But at a certain point you have to give it a shot when nothing else works. Its up to you to decide whther the advice you're getting

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:
I will say this. You say you're seeing a therapist, preumably to talk about your problems. That is good, that is healthy. You are taking steps to fix the problems. Now imagine that instead of going to see a therapist, you just decided to ignore your issues and hide from them. Would you consider that as unhealthy?


Of course seeking treatment or whatever is better than not. That is in no way the issue. That has never been my objection. Again, my objections are the hostile way that these things are presented in the name of "tough love," and the utter presumption of butting into my business, telling me what to do and what not to do.
Sieg Reyu wrote:Tough love works when the person giving it understands the issue.
Its up to you to decide whether the advice you're getting is good. You are under no obligation to listen to anything anyone tells you to do. Consider it, think about it, but take it with a grain of salt. Maybe it sucks, but maybe it was exactly what you needed. But if you automatically discount it because you are as stubborn as I am, that's dumb.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 15 Nov 2016, 22:00

Sieg Reyu wrote:I just want to make this clear first thing first. I am completely ok with the stream as I understand it at the moment. I plan on checking it out firsthand after DB, and my opinion might change at that point, but from what I understand, its good. My only concern with it at the moment is the name, as I find Storm Shelter paints the wrong picture, and its why I reacted negatively to begin with. I like Eye of the Storm. A place in the middle of turmoil that is calm. I understand if it comes across as too tumultuous, but its just a suggestion.

My dog in this race is bridging the gap, healing the divide. I don't need to point out that quite a bit f friction was created, and I want to fix that. Because that is what I do, because I have nothing better to do. We don't need to agree with each other, but I feel we should come to understand one another.


And that's fine - I'd like to come to that understanding. But, full disclosure - there's a lot of hurt around this topic for me. It's touchy. It makes me angry. I'm sorry if that comes through.

I figured as much, and yeah, that shit sucks. Did I ever tell you about the time my mom abandoned me in the middle of nowhere, five miles form town because I refused to learn how to drive? You see, what happened was my mom abandoned me in the middle of nowhere, five miles form town because I refused to learn how to drive. (I can give you the full story if you're interested) See I wasn't emtionally prepared, thinking about it made me stress. Eventually I realized that the reason it stressed me out is because I sat in the back seat while my mom taught "taught" my brother to drive. Just witnessing it was so stressful that it made me want to bale out of a speeding van on to a highway. Once I figured out that, I got my grandma to teach me and it went fine.


And that, to me, is what "tough love" almost always means. And it's wrapped up in the other definition that you're promoting, as a way to invalidate people's negative feelings about being abused.

So one thing I didn't do a good job of explaining, tough love isn't a starting point. Its a nuclear option. If you are having problems with a single game crashing, your first step isn't going to be to completely reinstall your OS unless you are a crazy person. You start with basic steps and you escalate until that is your only option left. Now lets say you've got a person who is having that issue and they keep piddling around repeating the same steps over and over and they don't want to escalate because they are scared of the hassle associated reinstalling Windows. Someone needs to give them the boot to the booty to get what needs to be done, or else they're not going to ever going to get to enjoy that game. which brings me to my next point


I get that. But I don't see that it in any way addresses my objections. First resort or last resort, "tough love" is still hostile in tone, and still always presumptuous.

There's no call to be that hostile, and there's no call to butt into other people's business like that.

Why do you need to "give them the boot to the booty"? Where do you get off doing that? What right do you have? How is it any of your business? Especially, as is germane here, when we're talking about people you do not personally know who you've found on the internet, discussing how they're dealing with their issues on their own?

Again... if someone walks up to me and "boots me in the booty" because, in their opinion, I'm doing something wrong, I'm going to tell them to bug off. Because my business isn't theirs. They're just some, forgive me, rando.

(Also, as relates to the Stream Shelter specifically, the "tough love" sure wasn't being used as a last resort. It just appeared in the thread. Condemnation being vomited at people trying to deal with their own problems. Hostile and unsolicited. Presumptuous. You see the problem with that, even under your own formulation, I'm sure.)

I recently had computer issues and shopped around trying to find a solution. I got tons of suggestions on how to fix it. Not one of them helped me fix the issue. In fact many of the solutions I was offered were things I already stated that i had tried. However, attempting those helped me stumble upon the actual issue, a temperature sensor is off, so my computer didn't realize it was getting hot so my water cooler wasn't kicking in. See, I'm going to let you in on the big secret. Most advice is terrible. The thing is, when its innocuous, and its wrong its no big deal. If someone tells you to perform an ip release renew to fix a game crashing, sure. There is a 0.01% chance that it will fix the issue, but maybe it worked for them. And it takes five seconds, so no big deal. No big deal. But when drops the harsh truth that you need to reinstall and it doesn't work, then you've wasted hours of time. And when it could have been resolved with a video driver reinstall, yeah, its bad advice. But at a certain point you have to give it a shot when nothing else works. Its up to you to decide whther the advice you're getting


Again... the advice may be good and it may be bad. That's not my issue. My issue is that if I'm not asking for advice, I don't want advice. That's the presumption. That you know me better than me. It's not your business. Ignoring my desire to be left alone is presumptuous and hostile, especially if the tone is "tough" or aggressive.

Tough love works when the person giving it understands the issue.
Its up to you to decide whether the advice you're getting is good. You are under no obligation to listen to anything anyone tells you to do. Consider it, think about it, but take it with a grain of salt. Maybe it sucks, but maybe it was exactly what you needed. But if you automatically discount it because you are as stubborn as I am, that's dumb.


I still think you're missing my point. My objection is prior to all of this. Good advice, bad advice, whatever. It's the fact that I'm being given unsolicited advice at all that I object to. If I want help, I will ask for it. If I don't, I won't. Respect that. Especially if the reason you've decided to muscle your way into my business is because you've observed me handling my issue and you just don't like it. You think you know better. Of course I'm going to react negatively to that. And I'm going to tell you to go away.

You say I have no obligation to follow advice given to me; I say I have no obligation to listen to advice hurled at me, unsolicited. Further, I say that you have an obligation to not hurl advice at me, unless I specifically ask for it.

"Helping" without being asked isn't a help. It's being a busybody.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 16 Nov 2016, 00:39

Forgive if this comes of as snide or accusatory, I'm trying to be as Socratic as possible.

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:It's the fact that I'm being given unsolicited advice at all that I object to
And so we come to the crux of the issue. So, basically what you are saying is unsolicited advice is bad, tough love is worse? Here is my problem with that. Your first post in that thread was made AFTER Wraith's post. Maybe you were lurking the entire time, I don't know. But to start with 1.

1. How can he be giving you unsolicited advice if you weren't even in there. Sure, it was directed to a group of people that you fall within, but if we have to consider every post based on who it might apply to, well you can just go ahead and throw me overboard.

2. When you boil it down, advice is an opinion. Your opinion that someone is doing wrong, and your opinion on how to fix it. So tell me. Which opinions are okay to express, and which are not? What about opinions that other people don't like? How are we supposed to know what opinions are going to affect who? We can't. Do we just keep all opinions to ourselves forever. Did this fucker just a slippery slope. What an idiot. What's he going to do next? Call you a shitler

3. So Wraith interjects himself in to a thread and makes a post making a strawman rant against something that upsets him, Safe Spaces. And in response you interjects yourself in to a thread and make a post making a strawman rant against something that upsets you, abuse masked as tough love.

4. You're butting in, even though he didn't ask for it, make the presumption he's trying to abuse and bully, and telling him what he should do in a forceful tone. I mean . . .
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 16 Nov 2016, 02:44

To add to Sieg's points, I personally don't think that Wraith and others were offering advice; they were offering an opinion regarding the necessity and usefulness of the stream shelter such as it is. Perhaps there was advice implicit therein, but one could argue that with pretty much all opinions. This whole debate kicked off following the election results, and I'm sure given the option a lot of us would rather like to let Mr Trump know some of our opinions on his policies... and I doubt we'd consider it much of a response for him to simply blow us off with 'I don't want unsolicited advice, I already know my views on the matter'.

Now, we can argue the validity of that argument until the cows come home (it was only meant as an illustrative comparison), but that's not really the core of why there is an argument here. The reason for the argument is simply one of perspective; Wraith made it abundantly clear in his posts that he has had good experiences with a 'tough it out' approach in the past, whilst people such as ReilaOda, Fayili and yourself, Arclight, made it equally clear you have had poor experiences with such an approach. And here's the thing that got missed:

NEITHER OF YOU ARE WRONG.

You might have had good experiences, they might have had bad experiences; that means that you have different perspectives on the issue. I mean, take for example your statement that 'tough love' is "hostile in tone and always presumptuous"; I'm sure it's been true for you, but definitely not for the likes of Wraith and not from my own experiences either. This does not mean you are wrong- it means the issue is multifaceted and nuanced and that a fair judgement can only be reached by all of you communicating and sharing to try and find the limits of the approach- where/who it works best for, where it's less good. For an example from another field, a while back I seem to remember you starting a thread about wanting positive associations with masculinity, and someone else asking why you felt you wanted to associate with that label, when they had only had positive experiences from consciously rejecting such labels. Different people, different experiences, different perspectives and thus different conclusions. You see this blindness all the time in politics, civil rights and social justice debates- people who insist the other side of the argument are cruel or idiotic or 'out of touch', when all they actually have is a different perspective on the issue than you do from their different life experiences.

Now, does that excuse the somewhat hostile tone adopted by Wraith? No, probably not (The argument on that masculinity thread didn't get at all heated, for example), but in my book it equally does not justify a heated, emotionally charged response. The debate was still recoverable if only one side had taken a reasoned approach. It's difficult, I know, I get it... but you remember what I just said about politics? It's this seeming inability for either side to sympathetically communicate and relate to their opponents that's lead half the supporters of BOTH major American political parties to feel that the other party's policies represent a genuine threat to America. If we can't bring ourselves to do better, this election is only the start.

I'm sorry that I've only dropped by these threads to make tired, frustrated comments on the state of the debate at play, but it just frustrates me to see this happening in a community I have so much respect for.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Nex Vesica » 16 Nov 2016, 07:33

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I think that in most situations posts can naturally veer in a different direction without creating issues. This thread is a perfect example of that. I think the issue with the previous thread was that it was much more of a general announcement/organization thread as opposed to a discussion thread.

I saw it as "hey, we're setting up these streams with these purposes." Elomin asked a reasonable question regarding the purpose of the streams, and I felt like he received a fair answer and while things did get a little heated initially, it felt handled. But then Wraith came in and kept derailing things with arguing something that was quite frankly a whole different topic.

And again, changing conversation is fine. But I think people were getting upset that the original purpose of the announcement was being completely overshadowed. I think that's part of why things aren't nearly so heated in this thread, and if Wraith or anyone else had started this topic first I think things would have been fine.

In comparison, just look at the other somewhat similar Storm Shelter Gathering thread. It isn't really meant for discussion, more of an organizational post, and that's exactly what it is doing.

I guess for an RL example, it felt like a group of coworkers were trying to figure out where to go to get a drink after work, and while trying to figure out times and locations, someone that was passing by started shouting about how irresponsible they were for driving drunk and putting lives at risk.

It is too bad, because I think the conversation is interesting and worth having. I can't say I agree with everything that Wraith posted, but there were certainly areas where we had common ground. I hope they will continue the conversation once the ban is over, and I'm optimistic that it will go over a lot better in a discussion thread such as this one.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 16 Nov 2016, 12:52

Sieg Reyu wrote:Forgive if this comes of as snide or accusatory, I'm trying to be as Socratic as possible.


No worries! While I have strong feelings on the issue, rest assured that I don't have any negative feelings toward you. This is a civil conversation, as far as I'm concerned. :)

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:It's the fact that I'm being given unsolicited advice at all that I object to
And so we come to the crux of the issue. So, basically what you are saying is unsolicited advice is bad, tough love is worse? Here is my problem with that. Your first post in that thread was made AFTER Wraith's post. Maybe you were lurking the entire time, I don't know. But to start with 1.


Well, this is half the issue. This is the "presumption" half, not the "hostile tone" half.

And, yes, I was following the thread closely before I posted. I just had nothing to say at that point. But, to take your points in order...

1. How can he be giving you unsolicited advice if you weren't even in there. Sure, it was directed to a group of people that you fall within, but if we have to consider every post based on who it might apply to, well you can just go ahead and throw me overboard.


Well, as I say, I was there. You couldn't know that, though.

But, yes, I do want you to consider the impact of every post you make on other people. Even - especially - people you hadn't considered. I want you to think through the consequences of your speech. I want everyone to.

Plus, you know... unsolicited advice was being given, intentionally, to people. I'm not just objecting on my behalf, I'm objecting on theirs. To the principle of the thing.

2. When you boil it down, advice is an opinion. Your opinion that someone is doing wrong, and your opinion on how to fix it. So tell me. Which opinions are okay to express, and which are not? What about opinions that other people don't like? How are we supposed to know what opinions are going to affect who? We can't. Do we just keep all opinions to ourselves forever. Did this fucker just a slippery slope. What an idiot. What's he going to do next? Call you a shitler


All opinions may be expressed. But sometimes, opinions are expressed in a bad place, or are in and of themselves objectionable. People can, will, and should call that out. That's a consequence of speech: people will disagree.

And sometimes that disagreement is going to take the form of "This is not the place for that discussion" or "Who the hell are you and why are you butting into my business? Step off."

3. So Wraith interjects himself in to a thread and makes a post making a strawman rant against something that upsets him, Safe Spaces. And in response you interjects yourself in to a thread and make a post making a strawman rant against something that upsets you, abuse masked as tough love.

4. You're butting in, even though he didn't ask for it, make the presumption he's trying to abuse and bully, and telling him what he should do in a forceful tone. I mean . . .


I think this is a bit of a red herring. A response to an action is not the same thing as that action.

This is an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across:

If I walk up to you on the street and punch you in the face, I've assaulted you. But if you walk up to me on the street and punch me in the face, then I punch you back, I've not assaulted you; I've defended myself.

Different context, and therefore a different act.

Moreover, coming into a thread and telling people that they're wrong is unsolicited; responding to that is absolutely solicited. Not only does the act of opening a debate imply a willingness to further engage in debate, the posts in question literally ask for further debate (unless I'm misremembering).

In either case, the response by myself and other posters was not unsolicited, while the original criticisms most definitely were.

The original thread basically said "Hey, here's a thing we're doing! Let's organize!" That does not imply solicitation of critique or debate. Barging in on that with critique and debate is therefore inappropriate and exactly the sort of presumption I take issue with.

But posting such critique and debate in a thread such as this one, which was explicitly created for that purpose is obviously not unsolicited, and therefore not presumptuous.

We're asking for that conversation here. We're not having it shoved down our throats without our asking. There is no sea-lioning in this thread.

My pseudonym is Ix wrote:To add to Sieg's points, I personally don't think that Wraith and others were offering advice; they were offering an opinion regarding the necessity and usefulness of the stream shelter such as it is. Perhaps there was advice implicit therein, but one could argue that with pretty much all opinions.


Advice or opinion, it was unasked for, it was hostile, and it was the wrong place for it.

This whole debate kicked off following the election results, and I'm sure given the option a lot of us would rather like to let Mr Trump know some of our opinions on his policies... and I doubt we'd consider it much of a response for him to simply blow us off with 'I don't want unsolicited advice, I already know my views on the matter'.


There's a difference between a public figure getting advice on their management of their office, and a private individual receiving advice on their personal, private affairs.

Now, we can argue the validity of that argument until the cows come home (it was only meant as an illustrative comparison), but that's not really the core of why there is an argument here. The reason for the argument is simply one of perspective; Wraith made it abundantly clear in his posts that he has had good experiences with a 'tough it out' approach in the past, whilst people such as ReilaOda, Fayili and yourself, Arclight, made it equally clear you have had poor experiences with such an approach. And here's the thing that got missed:

NEITHER OF YOU ARE WRONG.

You might have had good experiences, they might have had bad experiences; that means that you have different perspectives on the issue. I mean, take for example your statement that 'tough love' is "hostile in tone and always presumptuous"; I'm sure it's been true for you, but definitely not for the likes of Wraith and not from my own experiences either. This does not mean you are wrong- it means the issue is multifaceted and nuanced and that a fair judgement can only be reached by all of you communicating and sharing to try and find the limits of the approach- where/who it works best for, where it's less good. For an example from another field, a while back I seem to remember you starting a thread about wanting positive associations with masculinity, and someone else asking why you felt you wanted to associate with that label, when they had only had positive experiences from consciously rejecting such labels. Different people, different experiences, different perspectives and thus different conclusions. You see this blindness all the time in politics, civil rights and social justice debates- people who insist the other side of the argument are cruel or idiotic or 'out of touch', when all they actually have is a different perspective on the issue than you do from their different life experiences.


I don't disagree with any of that. I don't dispute that many people have had positive experiences with tough love. More power to them.

But that's missing the point. My objection isn't to tough love per se, it's to tough love applied unwillingly to people. That's the issue surrounding the "presumption" that I bring up.

Look, if Wraith or whoever else has positive reactions to tough love, great. They can indicate their openness to such things. But such openness should not be assumed - presumed - to apply to everyone. To do so, to apply a harsh form of advice to people who do not specifically opt into it, entirely ignores considerations of autonomy and consent. And to roll into a thread where no one has opted into such harsh treatment, and in fact gives every indication of opting out of it, just to criticize is both presumptuous and hostile.

If you want harsh words because you find them helpful, ask for them. But do not assume everyone is okay with harsh words or finds them helpful.

I mean, for god's sake, some people like their partners to be "tough" with them in bed. Would you assume that everyone is okay with that, or would you ask for consent to engage in such "tough lovemaking" beforehand?

I'm not going to say that being rough in bed is bad, but I will say that being rough in bed without prior consent is bad. Same issue. It's about consent and personal autonomy.

Now, does that excuse the somewhat hostile tone adopted by Wraith? No, probably not (The argument on that masculinity thread didn't get at all heated, for example), but in my book it equally does not justify a heated, emotionally charged response. The debate was still recoverable if only one side had taken a reasoned approach. It's difficult, I know, I get it... but you remember what I just said about politics? It's this seeming inability for either side to sympathetically communicate and relate to their opponents that's lead half the supporters of BOTH major American political parties to feel that the other party's policies represent a genuine threat to America. If we can't bring ourselves to do better, this election is only the start.

I'm sorry that I've only dropped by these threads to make tired, frustrated comments on the state of the debate at play, but it just frustrates me to see this happening in a community I have so much respect for.


Well, see, I disagree that an emotional response was unwarranted. Had Wraith's posts been made in a thread devoted to discussion of these issues, I'd agree with you. That's the place for them. But they were made in a thread that was not meant for debate. It was meant as a place to announce and organize the Stream Shelter. It was sea-lioning. It was foisting a debate, with a hostile tone, on people who had no interest in it. Of course people are going to get heated and say "Bug off."

Time and place.

Nex Vesica wrote:I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I think that in most situations posts can naturally veer in a different direction without creating issues. This thread is a perfect example of that. I think the issue with the previous thread was that it was much more of a general announcement/organization thread as opposed to a discussion thread.

I saw it as "hey, we're setting up these streams with these purposes." Elomin asked a reasonable question regarding the purpose of the streams, and I felt like he received a fair answer and while things did get a little heated initially, it felt handled. But then Wraith came in and kept derailing things with arguing something that was quite frankly a whole different topic.

And again, changing conversation is fine. But I think people were getting upset that the original purpose of the announcement was being completely overshadowed. I think that's part of why things aren't nearly so heated in this thread, and if Wraith or anyone else had started this topic first I think things would have been fine.

In comparison, just look at the other somewhat similar Storm Shelter Gathering thread. It isn't really meant for discussion, more of an organizational post, and that's exactly what it is doing.

I guess for an RL example, it felt like a group of coworkers were trying to figure out where to go to get a drink after work, and while trying to figure out times and locations, someone that was passing by started shouting about how irresponsible they were for driving drunk and putting lives at risk.

It is too bad, because I think the conversation is interesting and worth having. I can't say I agree with everything that Wraith posted, but there were certainly areas where we had common ground. I hope they will continue the conversation once the ban is over, and I'm optimistic that it will go over a lot better in a discussion thread such as this one.


Exactly. 100%.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 16 Nov 2016, 13:03

Don't.

Don't ****ing say it, Ix.

Just... eurgh. I'm off to the Venting thread.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Nov 2016, 17:29

Just to make a note: I, personally, do consent to blunt words as they're what's effective for me to understand.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby JustAName » 19 Nov 2016, 10:27

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Morgan is the LRR Crotch-throb.


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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 19 Nov 2016, 10:52

Can we all just stop and take a moment to appreciate the irony that Trump wants the theatre to be a "safe and special place"
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 19 Nov 2016, 12:52



That's one hell of a read.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 19 Nov 2016, 15:32

...yup, I find that entirely unsurprising in every way.
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