Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Drop by and talk about anything you want. This is where all cheese-related discussions should go
Darkflame
Posts: 402
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 05:06
First Video: Quantum Documentary

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Darkflame » 19 Nov 2016, 16:10

Sieg Reyu wrote:Can we all just stop and take a moment to appreciate the irony that Trump wants the theatre to be a "safe and special place"


The irony meter exploded a long time ago with that lot. The week before Pence wanted immunity from government email rules. Then you have Trumps wife wanting to do a anti-online harassment campaign,
They have no sense of self awareness at all.
http://www.fanficmaker.com <-- Tells some truly terrible tales.
--
Last update; Mice,Plumbers,Animatronics and Airbenders. We also have the socials; Facebook & G+. Give us a like if you can, it all helps.
User avatar
Sieg Reyu
Posts: 2930
Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 12:24
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: State of Confusion
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 21 Nov 2016, 01:39

I got tired of writing long winded posts, and I had a lot to say so I decided to just say it instead. I ended up going way longer than I thought I would. If I had any sort of patience for video editing, I could whittle it down. I ended up recording an hour of stuff which is just too goddammed long. I split it in to three. The first bit you can probably ignore. It's me bsing the use of Warhammer 40k as background imagery. The second part is the meat of what I wanted to say, so if you just want the core of it, go there. The last part is me talking about sea lions, other unrelated points, as well as attempting to recap.

The Metaphor
The Rant
The Ramble and Recap


And even after all that I forgot to talk about the Hamilton thing. To summarize that point, I feel like what they did, calling Pence out, was no different than what wraith did. There is a difference in HOW they did it, sure. But I feel like the cast could have called Pence a little bitch who ain't shit and the internet would still support what they did. Though I'm sure people would object to using the word bitch as it is harmful to women. But not like in "that word is harmful to women" way, but like in a "whoa, did you imply that he is female? How dare you besmirch our proud and noble gender with that human dumpster fire" way. And now dumpster fires everywhere are like "Hey, hold on now--"
Image Image Image
User avatar
ReilaOda
Posts: 44
Joined: 09 Nov 2015, 23:24
First Video: IDDQderp Stalker COP EP 1

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby ReilaOda » 21 Nov 2016, 03:25

Sieg Reyu wrote:I got tired of writing long winded posts, and I had a lot to say so I decided to just say it instead. I ended up going way longer than I thought I would. If I had any sort of patience for video editing, I could whittle it down. I ended up recording an hour of stuff which is just too goddammed long. I split it in to three. The first bit you can probably ignore. It's me bsing the use of Warhammer 40k as background imagery. The second part is the meat of what I wanted to say, so if you just want the core of it, go there. The last part is me talking about sea lions, other unrelated points, as well as attempting to recap.

The Metaphor
The Rant
The Ramble and Recap


And even after all that I forgot to talk about the Hamilton thing. To summarize that point, I feel like what they did, calling Pence out, was no different than what wraith did. There is a difference in HOW they did it, sure. But I feel like the cast could have called Pence a little bitch who ain't shit and the internet would still support what they did. Though I'm sure people would object to using the word bitch as it is harmful to women. But not like in "that word is harmful to women" way, but like in a "whoa, did you imply that he is female? How dare you besmirch our proud and noble gender with that human dumpster fire" way. And now dumpster fires everywhere are like "Hey, hold on now--"





I find this remarkably informative and well thought out, cheers. I'm not entirely sure what I can add to it other then I find this was appreciated and well done.
Darkflame
Posts: 402
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 05:06
First Video: Quantum Documentary

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Darkflame » 21 Nov 2016, 03:27

You dont think anyone elected should ever be called out over anything in person?
That winning 17% of the votes means people cant comment on your plans or wants for the countries future?

The Hamilton cast had a opportunity that gays and Muslims in danger right now, generally do not. They can protest in streets, sure, but any idiot will ruin or discredit a protest and the whole group gets branded.

Hamilton were using their voice to speak up for people that have a good reason to be scared, yet with little voice left.
This was a polite message of inclusiveness, to call it harassment in any shape or form is a huge distortion of reality.

--
Pence and Trump: "Ï am going to chuck bricks though these peoples windows!"
Hamilton : "Why not treat everyone nicely?"
Trump : "How DARE YOU harass us!"

--

But now ""the internet"" is wrong for sticking up for Hamilton cast making that statement?

That somehow a guy that wants a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, and another one that wants to ban or register all Muslims shouldn't have to...what....feel a few minutes of awkwardness?

Because thats the scale here; Feeling awkward over something they should feel awkward about VS something that will effect peoples whole lives.

The sense of proportionality here has gone flying out the window.
http://www.fanficmaker.com <-- Tells some truly terrible tales.
--
Last update; Mice,Plumbers,Animatronics and Airbenders. We also have the socials; Facebook & G+. Give us a like if you can, it all helps.
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 21 Nov 2016, 05:34

Anyone who is elected should be criticised. The fear that is happening at the moment, not completely unjustified, to me isn't warranted until the bad things start happening. Be prepared but don't jump to worst case scenario. All that's going to happen is people working themselves up into a fuss and breaking down.
Best example: that Mizzou University debacle. Caught on camera during one of protests. A female student working themselves up too much and breaking down crying because they didn't take a moment to breathe from their rant, thus, requiring a pity hug for something they did to themself.
Last edited by Elomin Sha on 21 Nov 2016, 05:44, edited 1 time in total.
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
User avatar
ReilaOda
Posts: 44
Joined: 09 Nov 2015, 23:24
First Video: IDDQderp Stalker COP EP 1

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby ReilaOda » 21 Nov 2016, 05:42

Elomin Sha wrote:Anyone who is elected should be criticised. The fear that is happening at the moment, not completely unjustified, to me isn't warranted until the bad things start happening. Be prepared but don't jump to worst case scenario. All that's going to happen is people working themselves up into a fuss and breaking down.
Best example: that Mizzou University debacle. People working themselves up too much and breaking down crying because they didn't take a moment to breathe from their rant, thus, requiring a pity hug for something they did to themself.




There is something to be said for that, my concern is where do we draw the line for things 'actually happening'. His selections for people to work with him could be a signal for what's happening. When DO we draw that line for legitimate full scale panic? That's the question I always have.
User avatar
My pseudonym is Ix
Posts: 3835
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 09:28
First Video: Canadian Girlfriend
Location: --. .-. . .- - / -... .-. .. - .- .. -.
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 21 Nov 2016, 05:59

There is no line for full-scale panic. Panic doesn't get shit done. First comes calling out bad stuff as it happens, second comes public protest, and thereafter public disruption to varying extents. Personally, I don't think panic is a useful response at any point.
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not Image it after all."
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 21 Nov 2016, 06:30

When it starts happening has always been my thing. How people react before an event, nowadays, is what defines people. That is how a stereotype is born.

“Were you aware that the ghost[1] whose existence is paradoxically proven by the physical body assumes the appearance of that body?[2]” – Kazundo Gouda, Ghost in the Shell 2nd Gig [Episode 9, Ambivalence]

‘The Myth of the Given’ was the name used, by Wilfrid Sellars, for a now widely-rejected view that experience we gain from our senses gives us peculiar points of certainty, which would be suitable to serve as foundations for a practical experience not grounded in theory. The name was adopted by Sellars, an American philosopher, in his work ‘Empiricism and the Philosophy of the Mind’ published in 1955-6 as an attack on behaviourism and the gaining of experience through senses. He created his own parable ‘Myth of Jones’[3] about how behaviourism can be linked to people through thoughts, intelligent action, and even subjective inner experiences [such as dreams where nothing from the outside world can interfere].
This ‘Myth of the Being’ is what we know under the variant word of stereotype. Given a certain control of information a person who echoes that fact is seen as one. A stereotype exists if there is a fragment of truth. If one is exposed to just one segment of a stereotype repeatedly then they can believe that this ‘Given’ becomes the ‘Being’ of that individual or group.

Although this is idea of ‘Given’ is no longer sought as true in the scientific world it does not mean it has gone away and does not apply with out that name in the personal world of perceived or lived through experience. This ‘Given’ stereotype then becomes the ‘Being’, what they are as a whole.

[1] Ghost is another word for soul and can be called the memory of being human after people start merging their brains with cybernetics.
[2] In the 2nd Gig series it is talked about how mental trauma mirrors the physical trauma of the face. If a person sees they are physically disfigured then they assume they are mentally disfigured from past experience of seeing others in the same way. This can say that if one person does something and they are a ‘gamer’ that could be misconstrued that all gamers are like that.
[3]Myth of Jones is a theory that takes place in Section 14 of Empiricism and Philosophy of Mind but is mentioned in previous sections. Section 14 onwards elaborates on the Jones theory.

The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
User avatar
ReilaOda
Posts: 44
Joined: 09 Nov 2015, 23:24
First Video: IDDQderp Stalker COP EP 1

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby ReilaOda » 21 Nov 2016, 06:54

My pseudonym is Ix wrote:There is no line for full-scale panic. Panic doesn't get shit done. First comes calling out bad stuff as it happens, second comes public protest, and thereafter public disruption to varying extents. Personally, I don't think panic is a useful response at any point.


Panic isn't the right word I grant you.
User avatar
My pseudonym is Ix
Posts: 3835
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 09:28
First Video: Canadian Girlfriend
Location: --. .-. . .- - / -... .-. .. - .- .. -.
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 21 Nov 2016, 07:41

ReilaOda wrote:
My pseudonym is Ix wrote:There is no line for full-scale panic. Panic doesn't get shit done. First comes calling out bad stuff as it happens, second comes public protest, and thereafter public disruption to varying extents. Personally, I don't think panic is a useful response at any point.


Panic isn't the right word I grant you.


In fairness, reading back at it I feel I ought to apologise for my rather deprecating choice of language. My bad.
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not Image it after all."
User avatar
Sieg Reyu
Posts: 2930
Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 12:24
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: State of Confusion
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 21 Nov 2016, 10:13

Darkflame wrote:You dont think anyone elected should ever be called out over anything in person?
That winning 17% of the votes means people cant comment on your plans or wants for the countries future?

The Hamilton cast had a opportunity that gays and Muslims in danger right now, generally do not. They can protest in streets, sure, but any idiot will ruin or discredit a protest and the whole group gets branded.

Hamilton were using their voice to speak up for people that have a good reason to be scared, yet with little voice left.
This was a polite message of inclusiveness, to call it harassment in any shape or form is a huge distortion of reality

If this is directed at me, then you've got me all wrong. I completely agree with what the Hamilton cast did.

ReilaOda wrote:I find this remarkably informative and well thought out, cheers. I'm not entirely sure what I can add to it other then I find this was appreciated and well done.
Oh stop, you're making me blush.

Don't actually stop. Your compliments are like sustenance.

Elomin Sha wrote:Anyone who is elected should be criticised. The fear that is happening at the moment, not completely unjustified, to me isn't warranted until the bad things start happening. Be prepared but don't jump to worst case scenario. All that's going to happen is people working themselves up into a fuss and breaking down.

ReilaOda wrote:There is something to be said for that, my concern is where do we draw the line for things 'actually happening'. His selections for people to work with him could be a signal for what's happening.
I do find that his cabinet picks are troubling. And I've seen a lot of people doing stuff about it. Good, great grand. Focused problem solving is the best option, in my book.

ReilaOda wrote:When DO we draw that line for legitimate full scale panic? That's the question I always have.
Imagine you've got a house fire. Spraying water all over the place seems like a good idea, as it stops the fire from spreading, but its a bandaid solution. As soon as you stop spraying, the heat will make it dry out and the fire would continue to spread. You've got to focus on the fires that are there before you worry about the fires that might be.

But I think I know what you're trying to get at. "At what point do we crank this shit to 11? At what point do we call every fire department in the Tri-State area and unleash a torrent upon this menace?" And the answer to that is "Fuck if I know."

Its not a perfect metaphor because in these situations you want to treat the source of the fire first, which in this case is Trump, but at the moment we can't do anything about that.

My pseudonym is Ix wrote:In fairness, reading back at it I feel I ought to apologise for my rather deprecating choice of language. My bad.
In fairness she did use the word panic first.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Arclight_Dynamo
Posts: 540
Joined: 18 Jul 2014, 12:44
First Video: Desert Bus 1

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 21 Nov 2016, 11:25

Sieg Reyu wrote:And even after all that I forgot to talk about the Hamilton thing. To summarize that point, I feel like what they did, calling Pence out, was no different than what wraith did.


I don't see it. At all.

- There is a difference between criticizing a public official about how they carry out the duties of their office and criticizing private individuals about how they conduct their private affairs.

- There is a difference between criticizing the policies and actions of a public official that directly impact you or others and criticizing the actions of a private individual that do not impact you or others in any way.

- There is a difference between reacting against the policies and actions of a public official by criticizing them and acting against the actions of a private individual by criticizing them. (Action/reaction are not the same)

- There is a difference between telling a public official that his policies and actions will harm citizens, put people in danger, and erode rights and telling a private individual that their chosen methods of self-care are wrong.

- There is a difference between debating politics with a politician who, by definition, has opened himself up to such arguments and coming into what is pretty clearly a safe space to argue against that safe space, which is closed to such arguments.

- And, yes, there is a difference in tone between respectfully asking a public official to respect the rights and consider the fears of a large portion of the citizenry and harshly arguing against the things that those scared people are doing to alleviate their own fears and anxieties.

There really is no comparison between the two, as far as I can tell.
User avatar
My pseudonym is Ix
Posts: 3835
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 09:28
First Video: Canadian Girlfriend
Location: --. .-. . .- - / -... .-. .. - .- .. -.
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 21 Nov 2016, 12:25

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:
Sieg Reyu wrote:And even after all that I forgot to talk about the Hamilton thing. To summarize that point, I feel like what they did, calling Pence out, was no different than what wraith did.


I don't see it. At all.

- There is a difference between criticizing a public official about how they carry out the duties of their office and criticizing private individuals about how they conduct their private affairs.

- There is a difference between criticizing the policies and actions of a public official that directly impact you or others and criticizing the actions of a private individual that do not impact you or others in any way.

- There is a difference between reacting against the policies and actions of a public official by criticizing them and acting against the actions of a private individual by criticizing them. (Action/reaction are not the same)

- There is a difference between telling a public official that his policies and actions will harm citizens, put people in danger, and erode rights and telling a private individual that their chosen methods of self-care are wrong.

- There is a difference between debating politics with a politician who, by definition, has opened himself up to such arguments and coming into what is pretty clearly a safe space to argue against that safe space, which is closed to such arguments.

- And, yes, there is a difference in tone between respectfully asking a public official to respect the rights and consider the fears of a large portion of the citizenry and harshly arguing against the things that those scared people are doing to alleviate their own fears and anxieties.

There really is no comparison between the two, as far as I can tell.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree again.

I feel that the comparison Sieg was making is more in terms of the nature rather than the specifics; both events were an individual/group of individuals (there's no word I can think of to describe this more succinctly) interjecting into a situation with a discussion/statement markedly distinct to that situation which the other parties involved had not requested or solicited, in reaction to the behaviour and words of those parties. You have already made clear that you feel this was not the case as the discussion is very much on the national and global agenda at present, but Pence was at the theatre. To bring up politics in a situation such as that was frankly unnecessary, and to my British sensibilities borderline rude (although the cast did mitigate this by delivering their message with impeccable politeness and about as much concession as they could have given the situation). Yes, he is a public official... but that doesn't make it polite to sea-lion him every time he goes outside.

Now, regardless of dubiously relevant etiquette semantics, does that mean that I think the cast of Hamilton were wrong to take their stand? No, not particularly, in much the same way as I don't think Wraith was wrong to interject. Both points made were relevant to the discussion being had at the time (perhaps more so in Wraith's case), and both parties clearly cared quite strongly about the relevant points. The difference, to me (aside from the private vs. public matter, which I shall address below, and the politeness of the delivery), is that people such as yourself interpreted Wraith's behaviour as a direct personal attack against, as you said yourself, their chosen method of self-care. I personally saw it as a discussion of the policy rather than an attack on any individual.

As for the private vs. public affairs discussion, I will 100% agree with you that public affairs should be open to public discussion and private affairs should remain that way. But that doesn't stop me from offering friends advice- they frequently don't listen or go their own way, but I personally don't think there is anything wrong with offering an opinion as to the way another conducts their affairs. And here we come to the fundamental difference of opinion: I myself draw the line only at hate speech, condemnation of behaviour or enforcement of an individual's private business... but that's only the way I see it. Bad manners come rather under their own category from my perspective.

So we come back to the same root cause again; a different philosophy regarding the debate being had between the various participants. And if you disagree with someone's fundamental philosophy, then that is a far, far better debate to be having in my book (remaining cognizant of subjectivity) than discussing things as though we are debating something fundamentally, provably true (which, based on my own reading, applies to pure mathematics and not much else).
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not Image it after all."
User avatar
Arclight_Dynamo
Posts: 540
Joined: 18 Jul 2014, 12:44
First Video: Desert Bus 1

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 21 Nov 2016, 12:38

I suspect you're right that this comes down to a fundamental disagreement in underlying philosophies. I also suspect that further debate on the point would be fruitless; I seriously doubt that either side is going to abandon their philosophies, especially given how deeply-held they seem to be. So I don't think I'll be continuing to debate. I've said my piece, you've said yours, and we disagree.

What I would request, though, is that people who disagree with my philosophy on this matter respect the wishes of people who have said "Please do not engage in 'tough love' with me" and "Please do not discuss these things in places we have created which clearly are not intended for them."

If nothing else it is, as you say, quite rude to engage with someone in a way they have explicitly asked you not to do.

Edited to add:

That last bit isn't directed at anyone specifically (certainly it isn't directed at ix - they've been nothing but thoughtful and polite). It's a general request.
User avatar
JayBlanc
Posts: 806
Joined: 18 Dec 2011, 13:54
First Video: That thing with the thing and that stuff

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby JayBlanc » 23 Nov 2016, 00:25

Elomin Sha wrote:Anyone who is elected should be criticised. The fear that is happening at the moment, not completely unjustified, to me isn't warranted until the bad things start happening. Be prepared but don't jump to worst case scenario. All that's going to happen is people working themselves up into a fuss and breaking down.
Best example: that Mizzou University debacle. Caught on camera during one of protests. A female student working themselves up too much and breaking down crying because they didn't take a moment to breathe from their rant, thus, requiring a pity hug for something they did to themself.


The problem there is that it suffers from the continuum fallacy. You think you are defining a nice clear cliff shaped threshold far in the distance that you can easily avoid.

You say that we shouldn't criticise until the bad things start happening. When is that? How bad are the bad things to be to qualify? What if they just pass laws enabling them to potentially do bad things to unpopular and easy to oppress minorities? What if they reduce or redefine rights to make it harder to object to future bad things? What if they make it harder to access the courts? What if they make it so the wrong kind of person finds it much harder to vote? What if they start soaking non-violent protestors with water cannons in freezing conditions and firing rubber bullets at their heads?

Here's a hint... If you said yes to any of those, then you've missed that some US states already went over that cliff face.

The cliff face is closer than you think, but you're standing at the back of the crowd being pushed towards it, and telling the people around you not to worry because surely those screams and cries you hear from up ahead are from the unduly afraid.
User avatar
Danielle Pepin
Posts: 822
Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 04:23

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Danielle Pepin » 28 Nov 2016, 18:23

Outside of acknowledging there's another thread for this conversation which may have been somewhat derailed I feel people who claim "tough love" working the vast majority should take a look at how many people choose to end their own lives from lack of a milder approach being available to them in their individual lives which for everyone is different. Depression thread has insight. I know of at least one person who's helping on occasion with Shelter Stream whom usually doesn't feel their life is worth something to anyone otherwise. I'm very happy to watch them with a renewed sense of usefulness. Can't imagine how that could possibly be a bad thing.
Image Image
Click here, receive tweet: http://twitter.com/DaniellePepinAI
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 29 Nov 2016, 05:21

When those things are being brought forward to be implemented. Otherwise it is a preemptive strike, last time one of those happen an entire region with serious and real issues. What people are afraid of happen probably won't. People need to engage their brains a little more and think.
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
JustAName
Posts: 7669
Joined: 30 Mar 2010, 21:08
First Video: Rapidfire I
Location: The Land of Unbearably Fashionable People and Lots of Cars

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby JustAName » 29 Nov 2016, 09:13

I'm not sure how to parse that post, Elomin. Can you try rephrasing it?
Alja-Markir wrote:Andy is the LRR Heart-throb.
Morgan is the LRR Crotch-throb.


And all I can do is read a book to stay awake. And it rips my life away, but it's a great escape.

Image
User avatar
Sieg Reyu
Posts: 2930
Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 12:24
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: State of Confusion
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 29 Nov 2016, 11:21

It's like he let a recurrent neural network write that post.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 29 Nov 2016, 11:35

Roger.

Since Knob Head got elected people have gone nuts with, currently, undue worry. Some people have cashed on it like the band Entropy, who said they would donate sales of their record to planned parenthood; same with Roe v. Wade; nothing has happened.
The gentleman from Hamilton who stood up and said what he did to Pence. Nothing wrong with what he said, but again, nothing has happened. He defended himself saying that he was starting a discussion. A discussion would be allowing Pence to respond, not talking at him. If he spoke to him backstage and they talked, no problem.

People have worked themselves into a panicked flurry trying to stop what has not even been implemented or proposed to the Senate or Congress, and not thought things through which can cause issues.

Pre-emptive strike: only good when trying to avoid bad drinking water, disease and real things like that. Kicking up a fuss with a blind assertion that something WILL go that way (if so there would be more people winning on lottery tickets). I was referencing the Iraq War as a pre-emptive strike was done, on false and broken information, and it made an unstable region even worse.

It's why some commentators have had to look at themselves with the past election and their conduct. Not thinking logically has caused a problem that didn't need to exist. Trying overly hard to keep people from harm has brought harm closer to the fray.



Side note: The forum has had issues the last few years. There are quite a few things that I keep myself away from, and when I have reactions have usually been unwarranted, but I've had fun discussing them even though I think some people haven't listened and thought about being on the other side for a moment. That's what I do.
And I kind of had enough of it the past few months; hence why I snapped back at you, Fayili, and Oda. I'm not a fan of false accusations, trust me, I've had untrue things levelled at me in school and in life (serious matters) that pissed me off to no end. From the original thread this wasborn out of, even though I gave Oda an out, in hindsight I would have liked them to address my long post I made and the points I asked.
Nevermind.

I'm of the opinion that some things have to be said sometimes that some people don't want to hear, and *hero pose* I'm the only one who will say it because words and people's opinion don't hurt me. Wraith would say things too but I'm not overly direct in language as he is. Having spoken to him in private, I understand why. I listen, observe, respond.
All that anyone needs to know from me, anything I write or think is never from malice or hate, you all know me and how I operate. If I was to I would be direct about it with a blatant insult. If anyone wants to ask me what I think, just ask, don't assume. Its what's being preache by ALL sides but not adherred to.
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 29 Nov 2016, 11:41

Sieg Reyu wrote:It's like he let a recurrent neural network write that post.


DAMN! My identity has been discovered!
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7358
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby AdmiralMemo » 29 Nov 2016, 17:13

Posts by Elomin Sha are now written by RoboRosewater. ;-)
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
Anaerin
Posts: 52
Joined: 24 Jul 2014, 14:30
First Video: Checkpoint

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Anaerin » 02 Dec 2016, 22:36

Okay, this is going to be long and rambling, but I hope will clarify how I view the situation regarding "Safe Spaces" and the like. Like Alex, I'm not a wordsmith, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone.

Let's start with the basics, so everyone knows where I'm coming from. I'm a 36-year-old (ugh, god) straight, white, cis male. I was brought up for the first 22 years of my life in the UK, though I am now living in Canada. It is to this former place of residence I am going to be mostly talking about.

The UK has something of an archaic view on gender, and the emotional roles thereof. It is an unwritten law (not rule, or advice, but law) that there are only 3 times a "real man" may show emotion - Upon the death of their child, upon learning they have contracted a fatal illness, or upon their football team winning their national championship. These displays must last no longer than 5 minutes, at which point the "real man" should buck up and get on with it, returning to being as stoic as a rock. Mental illness has only two possible levels - either everything's perfectly fine, or you need to be wrapped in a straightjacket and locked up in a sanitarium. Your problems are yours alone, and looking for help with them is a sign of weakness. "Shell Shock" (or PTSD as we know it now) is something that only weak and insignificant people get, and any problem can be solved by having a cup of tea and just getting on with it. Lost a leg? Walk it off! The refrain from the bridge of 10cc's "I'm not in love" ("Be quiet, big boys don't cry") is whispered to toddlers in their crib, and is hammered into you again and again.

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, men and women, young and old, know these laws to their very core, and hold both themselves and each other to them. For a man to talk about his feelings with anyone is almost the strongest taboo. Women are expected to be highly emotional, running hot and cold as the wind changes, and men have to take it all, remaining firm and strong like the Rock of Gibraltar.

You might believe I'm joking about this, but I'm deadly serious. It's a code that runs throughout the UK as the way it is supposed to be. This is the "Tough Love" that is the very foundation of the country. And it's not just machismo, because that implies there's another way, it's simply The Way It Is. It's been that way since time immemorial, and will ever be so. The "Keep Calm and Carry On" poster wasn't meant to be aspirational, it was reinforcement of an edict so deeply embedded in the collective unconscious the poster was not used because it was thought redundant - of COURSE people would keep calm and carry on, that's how society works!

In the UK, this isn't even considered "Tough Love". This is just how it is. And pushing against that is an incredible uphill struggle - the concept has such inertia it's almost impossible to make headway. All the comedians joking around with self-deprecating humour in the UK? I'll let you in on a little secret - They're not joking. The delivery is "Ha Ha Only Joking" but the reality in their mind is "Ha Ha Only Serious". They mean every word they say, and everyone in the audience understands that. They're laughing because if they don't, someone might find out they're the same, and you can't have that. If that's the case, you must be mental, and the guys in white coats will be by shortly to collect you. That or you're too weak to be trusted with anything, at which point you're a social outcast not worthy of living. I'm pretty sure the UK contingent here will agree with my assessment, just in case you think I'm off my rocker, or projecting or something.

This kind of attitude leads to one of two scenarios. Either you wimp out entirely, break the second most important taboo and rid the world of a defective (namely yourself), or you undergo a psychotic break. While the latter is difficult to track, the former is quite easy. There's a group called "The Samaritans" who maintain suicide prevention phone lines and offices. They are the only independant group in the UK keeping statistics on suicides, which state that in 2014, 6,122 suicides were registered in the UK. This corresponds to a suicide rate of 10.8 per 100,000 people (16.8 per 100,000 for men and 5.2 per 100,000 for women). That's right, male suicides are THREE TIMES as many as female suicides, which incidentally were the highest rate recorded. And suicide was the leading cause of death for men between 20 and 34 in England and Wales, representing 24% of all deaths.

Statistics like that are what "Tough Love" gets you. It's what being so surrounded by your problems that you have no out, no place to stop and relax, to get your bearings and to chart a new course, not even for a moment, gets you. It's why safe spaces are needed. Not to bury your head in the sand, but to give yourself some space, a chance to collect your thoughts and feelings and look at them objectively, rather than being forced to deal with them head-on every moment of every day. If you have somewhere you can relax, some time you can decompress for a few moments, put your feet up, play a game, have a pint with friends, something like that, then I am very glad you have found a safe space of your own. You might not call it that, you might not think of it like that, but that is what it is. And some people don't have that luxury. Everywhere they go, everywhere they look, they are surrounded by their problems, to such an extent they have nowhere they can go to relax and reflect. Nowhere they can take off the mask of civility and be themselves for a moment, nowhere where they can't be what someone else expects them to be. For those people especially, but for absolutely everyone in general, the doors of the stream shelter are open. You don't have to be, or do, anything here. You don't have to pretend anything. Just come in, be yourself, even if you're not sure who that self is, relax and take a moment. It'll be okay.
fantôme
Posts: 510
Joined: 10 Jan 2015, 09:13
First Video: mtgo drafts
Location: UK

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby fantôme » 03 Dec 2016, 01:58

I live in the UK and can confirm that the above statements about this country are absolutely not true. We have massive problems over here, but a fundamental ignorance towards mental health and wellbeing is not one of them.
User avatar
My pseudonym is Ix
Posts: 3835
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 09:28
First Video: Canadian Girlfriend
Location: --. .-. . .- - / -... .-. .. - .- .. -.
Contact:

Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 03 Dec 2016, 02:14

Anaerin wrote:The UK has something of an archaic view on gender, and the emotional roles thereof. It is an unwritten law (not rule, or advice, but law) that there are only 3 times a "real man" may show emotion - Upon the death of their child, upon learning they have contracted a fatal illness, or upon their football team winning their national championship. These displays must last no longer than 5 minutes, at which point the "real man" should buck up and get on with it, returning to being as stoic as a rock. Mental illness has only two possible levels - either everything's perfectly fine, or you need to be wrapped in a straightjacket and locked up in a sanitarium. Your problems are yours alone, and looking for help with them is a sign of weakness. "Shell Shock" (or PTSD as we know it now) is something that only weak and insignificant people get, and any problem can be solved by having a cup of tea and just getting on with it. Lost a leg? Walk it off! The refrain from the bridge of 10cc's "I'm not in love" ("Be quiet, big boys don't cry") is whispered to toddlers in their crib, and is hammered into you again and again.

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, men and women, young and old, know these laws to their very core, and hold both themselves and each other to them. For a man to talk about his feelings with anyone is almost the strongest taboo. Women are expected to be highly emotional, running hot and cold as the wind changes, and men have to take it all, remaining firm and strong like the Rock of Gibraltar.

You might believe I'm joking about this, but I'm deadly serious. It's a code that runs throughout the UK as the way it is supposed to be...


As a resident British dude since birth... I must completely disagree.

The 'stiff upper lip' British stoicism thing is a stereotype, sure, and it's one embodied by many members of my grandparents' generation. And, frankly, it's not restricted to men in the slightest; upright, ever-strong resistance is a trait lauded in women just as much among the same circles. But that's just it; it's a stereotype, and given the way that British humour works that means it's also a joke. The "child, illness and football team" line dates from the music hall days. And regardless of its age, I simply don't think it's true any more.

When I was growing up, I never felt under any societal pressure to take any such attitude. In my early schooldays, it was often the reverse; I was frequently accused of bottling up my emotions unhealthily. I struggled with anger management, self-worth and depression through most of my school career, but widening of my attitudes towards stoic philosophy and mental health in my teenage years... did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change that. My issues were related to my being emotionally insecure and socially frustrated, not to do with any bottling up of emotions. Even nowadays, when I have softened greatly, I am surrounded by dozens of fellow male Brits who often accuse me of being emotionally closed-off. Point being that in my generation at least, people like me are the exception rather than the rule.

Now, this is not to say that society does not have a problem with male mental health and suicide, but that is in NO WAY an exclusively British problem. It is reported throughout the developed world, and to my mind cannot be put down to one particular cause. Part of it is, indeed, related to a familial and social tradition (which exists, I might add, across most of western society, not just the UK) that doesn't have room for men asking for help with deep emotional problems... but this is as much an artifact of historically poor education as much as anything else (I recognise that this is quite the leap in the logic, particularly for anyone who doesn't read as much James Flynn as I do, but just let me have this one). And in any case, the problem is multifaceted it's also related to the pressure to succeed, provide and deliver that society places on men, the breakdown of Protestant ideology in the common psyche and a lack of mental health support systems in place to help people. I do not feel that it is valid to describe the plethora of male mental health issues as a pure result of British 'stiff upper lip' attitudes towards hardship, but rather society at large's expectations of masculinity.

Equally, I wouldn't agree on the comedy assessment. Yes, people watching comedy know self-deprecating humour is actually serious a lot of the time (why was George Carlin so popular in the UK if not?), but that doesn't mean the only reason people clap and laugh is out of some desperate fear that they'll be socially rejected otherwise. Collective delusions are, from my experience, very very seldom that powerful. People clap and laugh because the people telling the jokes are funny, and because the jokes are a humanising connection to the joke-teller in a way that's been a long part of British comedic tradition. And because an equal part of the British psyche, from my exposure (YMMV), is the idea that it's a good thing not to take oneself too seriously.

Finally... the phrase 'Tough Love' has got thrown around a lot in this and previous threads, and unless I'm misremembering it that was a phrase I used originally as a shorthand descriptor of one of the two arguments at play. I would like to note here that it was only intended as shorthand, and should not be taken in a prescriptive sense to refer purely to the extremes of the viewpoint it expresses. Everybody has a different experience of these things, and having bad experience of one application of a particular approach does not equate to that approach being irrevocably flawed. No idea is good in totality and perpetuity- on either end of the argument.
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not Image it after all."

Return to “General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests