What is your religion?
- tak197
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Yes NecroVale, I am the all powerful Xenu. I am the one who brought about Scientology, and I don't appreciate the protests against my people.
Except Tom Cruise. He's a douche, and you all have my persmission to fuck with him as often as you want.
For really reals now, I am a Christian, raised Wesleyan, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, and Non-denominational. I have my own beliefs about my faith, which I am pretty sure I have shared on here, and I am very anti-Christonormative.
Except Tom Cruise. He's a douche, and you all have my persmission to fuck with him as often as you want.
For really reals now, I am a Christian, raised Wesleyan, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, and Non-denominational. I have my own beliefs about my faith, which I am pretty sure I have shared on here, and I am very anti-Christonormative.
- Alja-Markir
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Agnostic.
People who are actively religious confuse me because they insist that there absolutely is a god and a world order that fits with their specific beliefs, despite there being no possible way they could know that.
Similarly, Atheists confuse me because they insist that there absolutely is no god, which is also something no one can know.
As for Pastafarians, they're more satirical than actually religious. And Scientologists? They're a cult.
~Alja~
People who are actively religious confuse me because they insist that there absolutely is a god and a world order that fits with their specific beliefs, despite there being no possible way they could know that.
Similarly, Atheists confuse me because they insist that there absolutely is no god, which is also something no one can know.
As for Pastafarians, they're more satirical than actually religious. And Scientologists? They're a cult.
~Alja~
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Protestant-agnostic I guess. I lean heavily on the Protestant side though, as that's how I was raised, I willingly go to church every Sunday, and I believe in a significant amount of what is taught at my church. Agnostic because while I believe, I also look at everything in context, know that I can't know anything for sure, and I don't believe that protestantism has all the answers.
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Unfortunately, that's not always the case. My denomination is especially bad about it.
"Holy Trinity important? Come now, this is the 21st century."
"We can't really believe in the Bible. After all, it hasn't been updated in over 1000 years."
I've actually heard things that sound quite a lot like that. Scary stuff IMO.
"Holy Trinity important? Come now, this is the 21st century."
"We can't really believe in the Bible. After all, it hasn't been updated in over 1000 years."
I've actually heard things that sound quite a lot like that. Scary stuff IMO.
theashigaru wrote:Unfortunately, that's not always the case. My denomination is especially bad about it.
"Holy Trinity important? Come now, this is the 21st century."
"We can't really believe in the Bible. After all, it hasn't been updated in over 1000 years."
I've actually heard things that sound quite a lot like that. Scary stuff IMO.
it's happening all too frequently in the church I'm afraid, everyone wants to get experiences, be it the laughter movement or whatever, I agree denomination has little to do with anything, that's why I stick with the Bible for doctrinal issues. I'm going to be at a Bible conference this Friday and Saturday talking about this very stuff. (I hope I didn't offend anyone)
- NecroVale
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theashigaru wrote:Unfortunately, that's not always the case. My denomination is especially bad about it.
"Holy Trinity important? Come now, this is the 21st century."
"We can't really believe in the Bible. After all, it hasn't been updated in over 1000 years."
I've actually heard things that sound quite a lot like that. Scary stuff IMO.
Yeah... That's part of the reason I'm not "actively Christian". I grew up with people trying to add their conservatism and beliefs from the early 1900's to Christianity (They don't think it's proper for women to wear pants when they go to church, and when I was at their private school they about made it seem like if you had long hair[long meaning if it touched your ears and enough of the back of your neck] and you died God would say "Nope, Hell for you").
Allen! wrote:I know, it confused and aroused me.
Also made me hate him more.
- Alja-Markir
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theashigaru wrote:"We can't really believe in the Bible. After all, it hasn't been updated in over 1000 years."
While I can't say much on the other things you mentioned, I can draw a parallel here that might shed a bit of light on why some people might see this as a reasonable position. Bear with me.
There is an ancient Japanese text called the Kojiki, written in 680 AD, which describes the origins of Japan itself, the Shinto gods, and the Japanese Imperial family. To most scholars, it is considered a legendary accounting of early Japanese history and many of the events described within may be described as mythical.
Just like the Bible, it was written well over a thousand years ago.
Just like the Bible, it recounts the creation of the world by divine forces.
Just like the Bible, it recounts the divinely influenced early history of a people watched over by benevolent divine power.
Just like the Bible, it describes this people as chosen by divine providence to become rulers and to prosper.
Why is it, then, that very many devout Christians will readily dismiss the Kojiki and other similar works as simple myths and legends, and then turn right around and devote themselves entirely to a nearly identical work that simply deals with different people and gods?
~Alja~
Addendum: As far as NecroVale's comments on hair, I must be a heathen devil due to my long and luxurious locks. Heck, even beyond that I'd probably frighten Morman's and Protestants pretty badly if they sat down and got to know me. I study "Pagan" history and culture, I directly challenge the legitimacy of the Church as an organization, I approve of people being "sexual deviants", and all sorts of other things.
Alja-Markir wrote:People who are actively religious confuse me because they insist that there absolutely is a god and a world order that fits with their specific beliefs, despite there being no possible way they could know that.
I disagree with this. While some of religion is based on creation, not all of it is. I believe in God not as a being, but as a reasoning for why the world exists in the first place - but I still believe in evolution, and I believe in the Big Bang theory. What sticks out to me is what was there before the Big Bang (possibly due to not really knowing much about the theory). I don't believe that God talked to Abraham and Moses and all those other dudes - I think they are metaphorical stories. I don't think Moses parted the Red Sea, but I do believe that there was an Exodus from Egypt. I know the stories are stretched, but I believe they are there to tell a story and to have a moral, not to be the ultimate truth.
There are varying degrees of religion, and one can be religious without blind faith.
When you start saying "That was just a story, but this is true," you begin down a path that leads to "The Bible is just a story, and none of it was meant to be read literaly."
What then? Suddenly, the entire idea of God is just "there to tell a story and to have a moral, not be an ultimate truth". I don't think you can just start dismissing the inerrant word of God as being little more than another of Aesop's Fables.
What then? Suddenly, the entire idea of God is just "there to tell a story and to have a moral, not be an ultimate truth". I don't think you can just start dismissing the inerrant word of God as being little more than another of Aesop's Fables.
- Alja-Markir
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Oh, I know not all people who would consider themselves to be religious are blind zealots. A whole lot of them are, but I really don't think of them as being true to their religions.
That said, it's refreshing to know that you've got such realistic views Emma. All your points resonate with me as an Agnostic. Famous religious leaders probably didn't really talk to gods. Moses did lead the Hebrews from Egypt historically, but probably didn't raise his staff and physically separate an entire sea. The Big Bang theory does happen to have large doubts looming around it, and unanswerable questions like what was there before the bang. (And yes, Science is a form of religion in many ways, so it can be thought of similarly.)
Religion is precisely what you say, telling a story and having a moral. Where it runs into problems is when so many people, actively and voraciously, treat it as ultimate truth. The kind of people who do that, I tend to think of being somewhat blind. The kind of people who treat religion realistically and intelligently, asking questions and realizing that there may not be answers, are the truly spiritual and religious people in my eyes. They are fairly few and far between, but I find them to be inspiring.
~Alja~
- Addendum -
Hawkaris, you got your post in before I finished mine. To be honest, I believe exactly what you make out to be so terrible, that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally.
Out of curiosity, why would it be so bad to think of religion as simply stories? In all probability, given the incredibly overwhelming evidence of countless different religions, different gods, different morals, etc, throughout time and across the globe, how is it any one particular one is absolutely ultimately right? What if every single religion known was suddenly proven to be false? Does that kill off the possibility of some higher power? Goodness no!
There really isn't any way to tell if there is one or not, but there very well might be, and there's lots of philosophical evidence seems to point to their being some higher power. Think about it though, what if there is a God, but not as any of us have ever imagined or thought about it? What if there are multiple gods? What if religion stems because of our ability to sense this power, but only very vaguely? What if that poor perception is what causes us to come with so many different ideas? We all think there's something, but we can't know what, so we add our own human ideas and ideals.
And ultimately, what if there is no higher power? What if we're the masters of our own will? If there isn't some higher power, will you stop being a good person, or living life properly? What if nothing means anything? There's still philosophy, there's still humanity, and all our other values. Just because there isn't some greater force doesn't mean we have nothing left to exist for. You make your own meaning.
That said, it's refreshing to know that you've got such realistic views Emma. All your points resonate with me as an Agnostic. Famous religious leaders probably didn't really talk to gods. Moses did lead the Hebrews from Egypt historically, but probably didn't raise his staff and physically separate an entire sea. The Big Bang theory does happen to have large doubts looming around it, and unanswerable questions like what was there before the bang. (And yes, Science is a form of religion in many ways, so it can be thought of similarly.)
Religion is precisely what you say, telling a story and having a moral. Where it runs into problems is when so many people, actively and voraciously, treat it as ultimate truth. The kind of people who do that, I tend to think of being somewhat blind. The kind of people who treat religion realistically and intelligently, asking questions and realizing that there may not be answers, are the truly spiritual and religious people in my eyes. They are fairly few and far between, but I find them to be inspiring.
~Alja~
- Addendum -
Hawkaris, you got your post in before I finished mine. To be honest, I believe exactly what you make out to be so terrible, that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally.
Out of curiosity, why would it be so bad to think of religion as simply stories? In all probability, given the incredibly overwhelming evidence of countless different religions, different gods, different morals, etc, throughout time and across the globe, how is it any one particular one is absolutely ultimately right? What if every single religion known was suddenly proven to be false? Does that kill off the possibility of some higher power? Goodness no!
There really isn't any way to tell if there is one or not, but there very well might be, and there's lots of philosophical evidence seems to point to their being some higher power. Think about it though, what if there is a God, but not as any of us have ever imagined or thought about it? What if there are multiple gods? What if religion stems because of our ability to sense this power, but only very vaguely? What if that poor perception is what causes us to come with so many different ideas? We all think there's something, but we can't know what, so we add our own human ideas and ideals.
And ultimately, what if there is no higher power? What if we're the masters of our own will? If there isn't some higher power, will you stop being a good person, or living life properly? What if nothing means anything? There's still philosophy, there's still humanity, and all our other values. Just because there isn't some greater force doesn't mean we have nothing left to exist for. You make your own meaning.
I am a Satanist, though I haven't finished reading LaVey's Good Book yet.
As far as deities I believe in, my focus moves around a lot. I'll probably never settle anywhere. So it's a good thing Satanism doesn't really have a god to follow.
Judaism is my second favourite, which is easy because I don't have to convert. The way hardcore Jews view their religion is sexy; it's less of blind following and more of lifelong discussion with other followers of your religion about the whole religion. (Not that other people in other religions don't do this as well, but I see this as an integral part of following Judaism.)
As far as deities I believe in, my focus moves around a lot. I'll probably never settle anywhere. So it's a good thing Satanism doesn't really have a god to follow.
Judaism is my second favourite, which is easy because I don't have to convert. The way hardcore Jews view their religion is sexy; it's less of blind following and more of lifelong discussion with other followers of your religion about the whole religion. (Not that other people in other religions don't do this as well, but I see this as an integral part of following Judaism.)
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Most of the Bible (up to the birth of Christ, ish) is pretty much the Torah, verbatim. Most branches of Judaism do not treat the Torah as truth, but as a story with meaning. When my dad was young, he approached our rabbi with a very literal question about one of the stories, and the rabbi himself said "it's a story. It didn't really happen."
What I am about to say is not meant in offense to Christians at all, and if it comes across that way, I'm sorry. But I will say it anyway: as a Jew, I really don't get Christianity at all. I don't understand it. I understand different religions that come from their own roots that say "this is what happened, this is what I believe". I am totally cool with that. I believe that they can both be right, and their stories can hold just as much truth as mine. If someone believes in Norse mythology, I think they are just as justified in that as I am in in believing in Judaism - even if I don't agree that the world was sweat out of a giant's armpit.
What I don't get is how a religion can take an already existing religion, add a few books on the end, and say that it is truth, as opposed to the one before it. Judaism has been around for as long as the story of Yahweh has been around. Christianity took that story of Yahweh and added stuff on to it - but I never really understand how that began, and how all of a sudden everything that they believed before was ignored, and new things were put in place. I don't understand how a collective can decide that all of a sudden something new is truth.
In Judaism, there are different levels, but they all believe the same thing. We believe in the same God, and the same rules - the different levels of religion just differ in how heavily we obey those rules. Some levels believe that women must pray in seperate sections of synagogues and celebrate in different rooms, while other levels let them mingle. Some believe that meat and dairy products can not even be eaten on the same plate (even if they're washed in between), while other levels just believe they shouldn't be eaten together. Either way, they are the same beliefs. Doing something wrong in Reform Judaism is pretty much the same as doing something wrong in Orthodox. Both levels believe that mitzvahs are the most important thing, both believe the same history and the same future.
But Christianity - christianity is completely different in different sections. Rules differ completely, even beliefs. In one section of Christianity you will go to hell for an action, in another you will not, for the same action. I have never understood how someone could justify that these rules came about.
In my mind, Catholicism makes the most sense as a religion because it was the 'first' one (though I still think it makes no sense because it is essentially taking the rules of Judaism but deciding that other ones are equally or more important - how are they justified in saying that?)- but I don't get how Luther just came along and said "this rule is untrue, and this one" and all of a sudden people know that when their priest says they won't go to hell for something, they won't.
I realize that I went off on an extreme tangent there, and I'm sorry.
What I am about to say is not meant in offense to Christians at all, and if it comes across that way, I'm sorry. But I will say it anyway: as a Jew, I really don't get Christianity at all. I don't understand it. I understand different religions that come from their own roots that say "this is what happened, this is what I believe". I am totally cool with that. I believe that they can both be right, and their stories can hold just as much truth as mine. If someone believes in Norse mythology, I think they are just as justified in that as I am in in believing in Judaism - even if I don't agree that the world was sweat out of a giant's armpit.
What I don't get is how a religion can take an already existing religion, add a few books on the end, and say that it is truth, as opposed to the one before it. Judaism has been around for as long as the story of Yahweh has been around. Christianity took that story of Yahweh and added stuff on to it - but I never really understand how that began, and how all of a sudden everything that they believed before was ignored, and new things were put in place. I don't understand how a collective can decide that all of a sudden something new is truth.
In Judaism, there are different levels, but they all believe the same thing. We believe in the same God, and the same rules - the different levels of religion just differ in how heavily we obey those rules. Some levels believe that women must pray in seperate sections of synagogues and celebrate in different rooms, while other levels let them mingle. Some believe that meat and dairy products can not even be eaten on the same plate (even if they're washed in between), while other levels just believe they shouldn't be eaten together. Either way, they are the same beliefs. Doing something wrong in Reform Judaism is pretty much the same as doing something wrong in Orthodox. Both levels believe that mitzvahs are the most important thing, both believe the same history and the same future.
But Christianity - christianity is completely different in different sections. Rules differ completely, even beliefs. In one section of Christianity you will go to hell for an action, in another you will not, for the same action. I have never understood how someone could justify that these rules came about.
In my mind, Catholicism makes the most sense as a religion because it was the 'first' one (though I still think it makes no sense because it is essentially taking the rules of Judaism but deciding that other ones are equally or more important - how are they justified in saying that?)- but I don't get how Luther just came along and said "this rule is untrue, and this one" and all of a sudden people know that when their priest says they won't go to hell for something, they won't.
I realize that I went off on an extreme tangent there, and I'm sorry.
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Alja-Markir wrote:Religion is precisely what you say, telling a story and having a moral. Where it runs into problems is when so many people, actively and voraciously, treat it as ultimate truth. The kind of people who do that, I tend to think of as blind sheep. The kind of people who treat religion realistically and intelligently, asking questions and realizing that there may not be answers, are the truly spiritual and religious people in my eyes. They are fairly few and far between, but I find them to be inspiring.
~Alja~
The only thing about that, is that is just one more view. The people who believe in it devoutly, believe they are looking at it reasonably and intelligently.
And please don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it does seem kind of arrogant to try and speak for religion as a whole, as being just stories, when you can't honestly and accurately say that unless you were present to view the events as they did, or did not happen. Just as you could assume that people aren't being reasonable to take the bible literally, the ones that do, could assume the same about you, for not taking it literally.
The problem with reasoning like that, is that it will always just come back to "Well it's just not logical to believe that." Which, when you're talking about an all powerful being who created everything, what is and what isn't logical has little bearing. Because logically, it's hard enough to wrap your brain around the concept of a being that has no beginning and no end.
The creation vs. evolution debate shouldn't be the big thing that it is. Even if the courts decide Evolution is right, that won't change the minds of people who want to believe, and the opposite is true, if they were to declare creation right. It shouldn't be the big thing that it is. They should honestly either teach both, and let the kids make up their own minds, or teach neither so the children can discover what they wish to believe.
I probably forgot half the points I wanted to make, and again, I don't mean any offense by this. I just think it's pretty presumptuous to say that "All people who take religion literally just aren't educated." When people say or imply the opposite, there are waves of outrage from everyone that doesn't agree.
Edit: See, what you did, you go and edit your post while I'm typing, jerk. Joking. Totally joking.
Also, whenever you say addendum I always think of HK-47... So, could you maybe say meatbags a couple of times in your posts?
Last edited by NecroVale on 24 Apr 2008, 15:25, edited 2 times in total.
Allen! wrote:I know, it confused and aroused me.
Also made me hate him more.
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