What is your religion?

[Vaughn]

Gods are like tea, some a green, some are french, some are ridiculusly expensive, and im not particularly favorable to any one of them.
=D

Bad metaphor is bad. Do not consider this an actual opinion.

Wait... so what happens if we drink them all? Do we get all their powers?

I think you just get a stomach ache.

[Alja-Markir]

Hawkaris, since you asked, no I don't believe in miracles happening as direct miracles. When it comes down to it, there is no known supernatural claim that could not either be 1) explained by alternate, normal causes or 2) discounted due to inability to verify it having happened.

I do, however, believe that miracles are not something to be entirely discounted. I do, also, believe that science can't adequately explain a good number of things. I believe I mentioned my views of science as a form of religion earlier in this thread.

~~~

Anywho, regarding miracles, if you stop and look at Exodus for example, almost every aspect of the story can be explained more than adequately in terms of non-supernatural events. These events just were later attributed to the power of God.

The pillar of smoke and flame? A common battle standard of the age, as well as a tactical device. A pillar of wood with a lit brazier atop it could be used at night for several possible purposes. Perhaps to deceive the persuing Egyptian forces into thinking that the Hebrews had stopped their flight and made camp. Perhaps the purpose was to cause illumination blindness, masking their movements in the shadows beyond this advance source of illumination. There are rational explanations beyond divine intervention.

The parting of the Red Sea? Known tidal changes in a thin and very shallow portion of the waterway between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. When the tide went out, the Hebrews crossed with ease during the night, and when at dawn the Egyptians saw that the Hebrews had fled, they attempted to follow, but the risen tide prevented their advance. Exodus directly mentions the chariots of the Egyptians, how they were halted, how their wheels stuck. Even in only a few feet of water, the muddy bottom would beenough to impede their crossing. And this was all key, because it bought the Hebrews enough time to get beyond the range of the very swift chariot forces of the Egyptians.

Passover? The killing of Egyptian first borns? The marking of Hebrew homes with goat's blood? Likely happened, but instead of some holy force killing the Egyptians, it was probably Hebrew warriors. (Yes, the Hebrew people likely made war, and often. They probably even acted as mercenaries, which is actually a very good argument for their being in Egypt at the time. The original Hebrew texts never once describe their position as "slavery", but instead as "labor". Mercenary forces with no one to fight were not above selling their manpower for menial labor, although no doubt they would have prefered proper employment.)

Now some things are harder to reconcile. The plagues of Egypt, for example. But given proper research, I'm sure perfectly reasonable explanations for every event can be given. And if there is a simple, rational, conceivable explanation for something, it is always preferable to "divine intervention".

~Alja~

[Lord Chrusher]

No... what I'm saying is that, either when we were primitive we didn't believe in sex, or at least humans aren't as old as evolution would want us to believe.

We did not believe in sex when we primitive? I am sorry but that is the craziest thing I have heard in while.

[Scone]

Gods are like tea, some a green, some are french, some are ridiculusly expensive, and im not particularly favorable to any one of them.
=D

Bad metaphor is bad. Do not consider this an actual opinion.

Wait... so what happens if we drink them all? Do we get all their powers?

I think you just get a stomach ache.

But it would be the best stomach ache of your entire life. Or the strongest.

God Diarrhea.

[NecroVale]

Sorry NecroVale but your argument fails.

You have committed the grave error of taking data from a limited time period then extrapolating the data backwards. That the world's population had begin growing rapidly in the last fifty years does not imply that the worlds population has been growing that fast for all of human history. Improvements in the agriculture and in medical care have allowed the Earth's population to explode in the last century.

I'm aware. Ok, for those of you that know, according to evolution how long has humanity been around?

[Vaughn]

Gods are like tea, some a green, some are french, some are ridiculusly expensive, and im not particularly favorable to any one of them.
=D

Bad metaphor is bad. Do not consider this an actual opinion.

Wait... so what happens if we drink them all? Do we get all their powers?

I think you just get a stomach ache.

But it would be the best stomach ache of your entire life. Or the strongest.

God Diarrhea.

Divine intervention of your gastrointetinal tract.
Wrath of god, Fratboy style.

[Hawkaris]

But given proper research, I'm sure perfectly reasonable explanations for every event can be given. And if there is a simple, rational, conceivable explanation for something, it is always preferable to "divine intervention".

You're not much of a scientist, if that is your view. You look at evidence, and you say to yourself, "That must be wrong. I must now twist it and justify it until it fits into my particular world view." You assume there is a perfectly rational evidence, so you stand on your toes, tilt your head, and squint with one eye, until it almost looks like something that might maybe possibly be explained without God, and then you proudly declare to the world, "There! The Bible is wrong! See: there was this red algae in this volcano runoff that killed the fish, which made the frogs die, which happened on the same year the locusts were due to return." How improbable must an event be before you'll accept that maybe, just maybe, God helped it along? At what point does your explanation become so convoluted that you have no choice but to declare that something slightly supernatural might have influenced events?

When it comes down to it, there is no known supernatural claim that could not either be 1) explained by alternate, normal causes or 2) discounted due to inability to verify it having happened.

Never, I suppose.

[Hawkaris]

Ok, for those of you that know, according to evolution how long has humanity been around?

Technically speaking, evolution says absolutely nothing about how long humanity has been around. Homo sapiens have been around for 200,000 years, according to science.

[Lord Chrusher]

How do want to define humanity? All info from Wikipedia

The oldest members of the genus homo, homo habilis date back perhaps 2.5 million years. Homo sapiens our species first appeared about 200 000 years ago in Africa, inhabiting Eurasia and Australia by about 40 000 years ago and reaching the Americas about 15 000 years ago. About 10 000 years ago agriculture begin with the first towns and cities being formed in the couple millennia later.

[Alja-Markir]

You're not much of a scientist, if that is your view.

Clearly you aren't reading my posts. I have stated my views on Science abundantly. I have never once claimed to be a scientest, or even to support Science. In fact, I voiced substantial doubts toward Science comparable to my doubts of Religion.

I have no inclination to spend further time and effort trying to hold an intelligent discussion if you only see fit to ignore what I am saying, make wild assumptions in place of the information you ignore, and blatantly stereotype me.

Good day, sir.

~Alja~

[Hawkaris]

Clearly you aren't reading my posts. I have stated my views on Science abundantly. I have never once claimed to be a scientest, or even to support Science. In fact, I voiced substantial doubts toward Science comparable to my doubts of Religion.

I have no inclination to spend further time and effort trying to hold an intelligent discussion if you only see fit to ignore what I am saying, make wild assumptions in place of the information you ignore, and blatantly stereotype me.

Fine, fine. I'd hate to ruin such a good thing that we have going here. I shall try harder to understand your position.

If I may recap: You have substantial doubts towards science. You have substantial doubts towards religion. You believe that there might be a god. You believe there might not be a god.

Where, pray tell, do you stand? I am quite ignorant of your view, as I have not encountered it before. The closest I can think of is the view of someone that doesn't know and doesn't care, but you obviously have some opinion or you wouldn't be in this thread, and you obviously care, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to help me understand your view.

I'm trying to find some standard from which we can debate. I am most used to using the scientific method as that standard, and so I must apologize for forcing you into that. You obviously use something else as the basis for your world view, and in the interests of personal enlightenment and continuing this discussion, I would like to know what it is.

[Scone]

Where, pray tell, do you stand? I am quite ignorant of your view, as I have not encountered it before. The closest I can think of is the view of someone that doesn't know and doesn't care, but you obviously have some opinion or you wouldn't be in this thread, and you obviously care, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to help me understand your view.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe his views of religion are not clear? Many, many, many people do not firmly believe in anything because it is difficult to grasp the intangible concept, though that doesn't make them blind for following it.

I'm trying to find some standard from which we can debate. I am most used to using the scientific method as that standard, and so I must apologize for forcing you into that. You obviously use something else as the basis for your world view, and in the interests of personal enlightenment and continuing this discussion, I would like to know what it is.

There is a good reason most religious debates end in quarrel. It is very hard to apply the scientific method to opinions, because when can you state you have adequately observed another's opinion that you might form a hypothesis about it. I really recommend math instead. =)

[TheRocket]

Seriously, how the fuck do we not have any Muslims.

Because that would be offensive.

Also, I'm not actually a Satanist Jew.
I'm a vampire-cat.

[Vaughn]

Thats why i say im an agent of Xenu, Taking this stuff seriously NEVER ends well.

[TheRocket]

Btw, this thread TL;DR.

And I have a feeling lock is gonna come down hard on this bad boy.

[NecroVale]

How do want to define humanity? All info from Wikipedia

The oldest members of the genus homo, homo habilis date back perhaps 2.5 million years. Homo sapiens our species first appeared about 200 000 years ago in Africa, inhabiting Eurasia and Australia by about 40 000 years ago and reaching the Americas about 15 000 years ago. About 10 000 years ago agriculture begin with the first towns and cities being formed in the couple millennia later.

Ok, it just seems to me that the population is low, compared to what I think would be a realistic number to have after 200,000 years.

There was a whole long thing I was going to say, but then I had to go make dinner, so... yeah.

[TheRocket]

Population is low? QUICK, LET'S ALL HAVE SEX NOW.


Srsly, guys. We need to re-populate.

[Hawkaris]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe his views of religion are not clear? Many, many, many people do not firmly believe in anything because it is difficult to grasp the intangible concept, though that doesn't make them blind for following it.

Actually, no, I did not consider it. He was calling religions "simply stories," and so I assumed (upon reflection, probably incorrectly) that he must have a better alternative prepared.

There is a good reason most religious debates end in quarrel. It is very hard to apply the scientific method to opinions, because when can you state you have adequately observed another's opinion that you might form a hypothesis about it. I really recommend math instead. =)

I'll try to be more careful before I assume adequate "observation" has taken place, then. I'd hate to cut off a debate early because I was coming off as rude.

[NecroVale]

Population is low? QUICK, LET'S ALL HAVE SEX NOW.


Srsly, guys. We need to re-populate.

Bad, vampire cat! Bad, bad vampire-cat!

[NecroVale]

Btw, this thread TL;DR.

And I have a feeling lock is gonna come down hard on this bad boy.

That won't happen unless it gets too uncivilized.

[Scone]

Btw, this thread TL;DR.

And I have a feeling lock is gonna come down hard on this bad boy.

I'll summarize the high points for you.

RELIGION
GOD
OUR VIEWPOINTS DIFFER
I CONCUR
HOW MIGHT THEY BE MADE THE SAME?
UNRESOLVED CONFLICT
POPULATION IS LOW! ORGY

[CyberTractor]

I am quite ignorant of your view, as I have not encountered it before.

It takes a big person to admit something like that.

Alja and I seem to have similar beliefs.

My belie is that the miracles in the Bible can be explained using modern science. Back then, people didn't fully understand tidal motions and transferral of bacteria, so things like the parting of the sea and plagues could easily be seen as divine intervention.

That is not to say that a god did not have a hand at it, but it's a lot easier to belief with a scientific mind if something other than "a god did it" is the explanation.


Another of my beliefs is that the Bible should be read as a story with the deeper meanings being more important than the events that transpired, but either way it doesn't matter.

Whether or not humans tried building a giant tower called Babel to reach the heavens is irrelevant. More importantly, the message is that if people work together for selfish reasons, they will likely fall victim to their greed. If it happened or not doesn't really have any bearing on the message, the story, or current life.

[theINC]

Anyone who's interested might like this:

[NecroVale]

Wait!! Allen!tology wasn't on the list when I voted. I'd join a religion devoted to the study of Allen!!

[CyberTractor]

I wanna switch from Pastafarianism to Allen!tology.