The Mojave experiment - Or "why do people REALLY hate V

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The Mojave experiment - Or "why do people REALLY hate V

Postby Wraith » 01 Aug 2008, 15:14

Basically, what they did was they called in 140 people and asked them what they though of Windows Vista. Predictably, the feedback was largely negative. Everyone said pretty much the same thing "I've heard nothing but bad things about Vista. It crashes. It's slow. It's crap. I won't let it touch my computer." Then they gave them a copy of Microsoft's "next OS", code named "Mojave." The results:

94% of the respondants rated Mojave higher than they rated Vista.

0% rated mojave lower.

Of the 140 respondants:

The average Vista score was 4.4

The average Mjave score was 8.5

84% of them were Windows users,
22% were Apple users (there was overlap, of course)
14% other OS users
1% Linux users

This was on a HP Pavillion DV 2000 with 2GB of RAM.



O.k., so Mojave seems like it's off to a good start.

The rub?



Mojave doesn't exist. The respondents were using Vista with "Mojave" stamped all over it.

http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/#
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Postby Corax » 01 Aug 2008, 15:31

lol pwned, i never doubted vista really, it has its downfalls but it has way more negative hype then it deserves.
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Postby Tim » 01 Aug 2008, 15:34

Had any of these people used Vista before?

It's interesting. Predictable, but interesting.
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Postby Master Gunner » 01 Aug 2008, 15:49

So windows has a problem in the marketing department, what else is news?

Seriously, it's interesting, but from what I got from the site, nobody that they tested had used Vista before, which makes any comparisons between this experiment and Vista kinda useless. What I'd like to see is them take people who have used Vista and make them try this, to see how the publicity and negative feeling actually effect the usability of the system, and whether or not disguising it actually gives people a better experience.
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Postby Beta-guy » 01 Aug 2008, 15:56

once I heard of this, I knew Wraith would speak up in favor of it... stop being a Microsoft fanboy, they got it wrong with HD DVD, and this mojave thing is just a really good marketing gimmick, the people are using a computer provided for them, with some one sitting there saying "I click this button and the flux capacitor will function" the user then replies "waaaay cool"

here's a fun thing, how about they install 'mojave' on a computer using the nvidia 680i chipset and we'll see how much the user likes it...
Last edited by Beta-guy on 01 Aug 2008, 16:10, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Telaril » 01 Aug 2008, 15:58

Ugh, that site is an abomination unto my browser. Is there some section that gives more detailed information on their expirimental procedure? How long did people interact with "Mojave?" Was the install being used one that currently comes as the default from a major manufacturer like Dell? Had any of the default system settings been modified prior to this experiment? Did they attempt to synch Vista with any non-approved devices?

I also wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some tendency for people to rate things they see as being "in development" higher than things they see as being "finished." I don't have the time to trawl for papers about that, so I'll just put that forward as a guess.

From what I can see so far I'd rate their experimental protocols as extremely poor. Their lack of a control is bothersome... if I were to design a study to examine this phenomena, I'd have had SOME kind of a control.

Here's how I would have set up the experiment:

1. Do a survey about Vista versus XP.

Four groups:

1. Using XP skinned as Mojave.
2. Using XP skinned as Vista
3. Using Vista skinned as Mojave
4. Using Vista skinned as Vista

That way you could both see the bias caused by people's opinions about Vista (which I am not arguing isn't statistically significant) and also whether or not they actually do prefer XP.

As it is, I'd say this is far LESS valid than the "Brand A and Brand X" taste tests that drinks companies keep pulling out (which are inaccurate for other reasons I may go into later... right now I'm trying to get home) . It's interesting, but it's also so experimentally flawed as to render the results laughably irrelevant in my eyes.

This isn't me writing as a "Microsoft Hater." The flaws in technique and the lack of information here would make me twitch no matter who was running this show. If Microsoft was actually trying to prove something relevant and not just do PR, they would have had much better protocols. As it is, this is a publicity stunt that devalues any point they might have had.
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Postby Paul » 01 Aug 2008, 16:01

This is basically just the Pepsi Challenge all over again, with the same problems.

http://wilshipley.com/blog/2008/07/moja ... e-bad.html
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Postby Corax » 01 Aug 2008, 16:15

Paul wrote:This is basically just the Pepsi Challenge all over again, with the same problems.

http://wilshipley.com/blog/2008/07/moja ... e-bad.html


i see the problems, i guess drinking a whole can of vista could suck
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Postby Tim » 01 Aug 2008, 16:28

It's obviously ridiculous to treat this as scientific in any way. It's a marketing gimmick designed by marketing staff, not by real sociologists/pyschologists.

Clearly, a real sociologist (like me!) would make a more meaningful experiment, if they were actually looking for unbiased information. But they aren't looking for understanding; they're looking for a good way to market Vista. And it's not a bad marketing scheme, IMO. It won't change the minds of people who are firmyl set in their ways, but it might change the minds of some people who are just piggy-backing on other people's opinions (which is a lot of people).
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Postby Evil Jim » 01 Aug 2008, 16:42

Awww. And here I thought it was about V.
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Postby Telaril » 01 Aug 2008, 17:17

Wow Paul, thanks for posting that link. It's pretty much everything I wanted to say, much more clearly broken down.
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Postby Wraith » 01 Aug 2008, 17:57

proudfoot wrote:Had any of these people used Vista before?

It's interesting. Predictable, but interesting.


I would assume they probably hadn't, which is why they didn't know that it WAS Vista, but that's really the point; that so much of Vista's negative buzz comes from people who have never used it and really don't know that much about it. It's always "well, I heard..." and it goes from one person to another, snowballs out of control, and eventually reaches the point where it starts influencing people who really should know better.
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Postby Wraith » 01 Aug 2008, 18:00

Beta-guy wrote:once I heard of this, I knew Wraith would speak up in favor of it... stop being a Microsoft fanboy, they got it wrong with HD DVD,


Wha? I don't know what part of this is supposed to make sense. Are you saying the lost when they created HD DVD? Because they didn't. Or are you saying the just backed the wrong horse with XBox 360? Because a hell of a lot of people did that.

Secondly, I'm not a Microsoft fanboy. I just really hate it when people hate on things without adequate reason.
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Postby Corax » 01 Aug 2008, 18:33

i have nothing for or against Vista, why? ive never used it, and thats the way it should be
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Postby tak197 » 01 Aug 2008, 20:27

The thing about this study is that it had no control set to work with. But, it does prove that branding in marketing is a very powerful thing. People saw "Windows Vista" and "buggy" or "slow" in it so many times, they began associating Vista with bad things. So the marketing team decided to take the name out of the equation and see what their reactions were.

It's very similar to the people on the internet being proud of not seeing an Uve Boll movie and hating Uve Boll, because of all the negative press his movies receive. You have to see one of his movies to know they are bad, but when you all watched the UVE Boll interview on here, you said that you can't really hate the MAN, just his MOVIES.
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Postby Tetsubo » 01 Aug 2008, 21:19

They had to *trick* people into having a positive view of Vista. That says volumes right there. Microsoft's marketing team should be fired.

I am using a Vista box. I hate Vista with the intensity of a thousand suns. Windows98 was a better OS. It certainly worked more efficiently.

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Postby Telaril » 01 Aug 2008, 22:01

Wraith wrote:
proudfoot wrote:Had any of these people used Vista before?

It's interesting. Predictable, but interesting.


I would assume they probably hadn't, which is why they didn't know that it WAS Vista, but that's really the point; that so much of Vista's negative buzz comes from people who have never used it and really don't know that much about it. It's always "well, I heard..." and it goes from one person to another, snowballs out of control, and eventually reaches the point where it starts influencing people who really should know better.


Form of: a wall of text!

Word of mouth is important. Everyone makes some purchasing decisions based on word of mouth. I'm proud to say I make a lot of purchasing decisions based on a combination of word of mouth and consumer reports.

Let's imagine that instead of an operating system, Vista was a toaster. Now, I have $50 to spend on a toaster, that's my whole toaster budget. I've had an XP toaster for a while, but the new Vista one is out. It's very shiny and has all sorts of awesome custom settings. I ask around if anyone has tried one.

One of my friends has tried a Vista toaster. They tell me that it worked great for the first few weeks, then they tried cooking frozen waffles. Every time, the bottom left corner would burn. I ask other people who have bought toasters, and the ones who don't eat waffles say it's a great toaster. But most of the people who use the toaster for waffles say it doesn't work very well. And I hear scattered reports of other problems... problems I never had with my XP toaster. I decide reliability is more important, and... without ever trying a Vista toaster... I buy an XP one.

Oh no! I've been influenced by negative buzz! I shouldn't judge the Vista toaster until I've tried it myself!

Vista isn't free, and you can't return it for a full refund if you're unhappy with it. It may take someone days, weeks, or months to finally find the thing that makes Vista unusable for them. So though they haven't tried it themselves, smart shoppers DO listen to word-of-mouth. Because trying Vista and seeing if it's for you isn't free.

Now remember, if I'd bought a vista toaster, I probably would have been impressed by its great design and the fact that it made toast extremely well. It wouldn't have been until the odd day that I decided I wanted waffles that I would have learned it didn't work right for waffles. So if someone sat me down with both toasters and a loaf of bread (keeping all waffles out of the area) I would probably have objectively judged the Vista toaster as better.

Now, I also have limited headspace. Imagine that, instead of remembering the waffle problem, I just remembered that Vista toasters had SOME problem, and I probably shouldn't buy one. Now I'm not only not trying it, I can't remember why! And yet... not buying it is still the better consumer decision, despite the fact that I'm making it without knowing 100% what I'm talking about.

Vista has bad word of mouth because a large number of people had bad experiences with it upon release. It may be better now, just as Postal may be a better movie than Alone in the Dark. I could possibly even watch the first five minutes of Postal (which are actually supposed to be awesome) and say "wow, that's actually pretty good."

I have no respect for people who are "proud to have never seen an Uwe Boll" movie. But that's not what we're dealing with here. I see the situation more as someone wandering to the movies to see what's playing. Their choices are Postal and Iron Man. One of these movies is getting their $10. The person says "Hmm. I've heard Uwe Boll's movies aren't very good. I'm going to spend my $10 on Iron Man instead, which I've heard is goddam fantastic."

Should that person know better than to listen to the negative buzz Mr Boll has gotten? I'd say that to suggest such a thing is condescending. And if someone listened to your suggestion to not consider word of mouth when picking between those movies, he might have wasted his entertainment movie on a barely adequate movie instead of a good one.

If someone asked me to rate how good I thought Postal would be on a scale of 1-10, I would probably say "4." This isn't me 'hating on it without adequate reason,' it's me making a decision based on word of mouth and reviews I've read, and I don't think it's any more worthy of bile or criticism than any of the hundred times a day I pick one item over another, be it detergent or candy or motor oil or television or comic books.

Microsoft messed up, and released a product that was not ready for prime time. This resulted in a lot of people having complaints, and spreading bad word of mouth. I firmly believe that the word of mouth in this case was entirely justified, as it would have been in my waffle example, and as it is in the case of Boll's movies.

The fact that they're using such an insulting and unscientific tactic and labeling it an "experiment" actually makes me more confident that the negative word of mouth was justified. Experiments need a control, the only times it is acceptable to omit one is when having a control would be impossible or unethical.

Deception is deception, and that is all this "Mojave" campaign is. I will argue that Microsoft is firmly in the wrong here, not the people who dislike Vista due to its negative word of mouth.

I just really really hate the abuse of science, and pseudoscience. Microsoft SHOULD be smarter than this, better than this. I hope I never see shenanigans like this from Google.
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Postby Beta-guy » 01 Aug 2008, 22:27

Wraith wrote:
Beta-guy wrote:once I heard of this, I knew Wraith would speak up in favor of it... stop being a Microsoft fanboy, they got it wrong with HD DVD,


Wha? I don't know what part of this is supposed to make sense. Are you saying the lost when they created HD DVD? Because they didn't. Or are you saying the just backed the wrong horse with XBox 360? Because a hell of a lot of people did that.

Secondly, I'm not a Microsoft fanboy. I just really hate it when people hate on things without adequate reason.


it was in reference to them backing HD DVD and only HD DVD, few companies did that, well fewer than for Blu-ray, Intel eventually backed both formats. I don't recall Microsoft officially withdrawing their support of HD DVD, only the HD DVD addon and that was after Toshiba gave up.

oh so that's why you came on here and started posting Microsoft propaganda, well let's all enjoy Windows Mojave... :roll:
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Postby browncoat » 02 Aug 2008, 03:50

Oh come on, look at the video!
The people they interviewed are most likely the opposite of a power user.
They want Word (works), IE (works) and maybe some special business software (uh oh!).
Tell them you run Firefox and they think you are an über-nerd, a genius hacker.

Plus: From what I've gathered they were shown a 10-minute demo.
It's not like they actually tried to REALLY USE the OS.

EDIT: The article Paul linked has it a nice summary:
Microsoft has managed to prove that if you have a friendly expert on a controlled machine (with Vista pre-installed) showing a carefully selected subset of Vista features to an ignorant XP user for a few minutes, the XP user will often say he finds Vista acceptable. Wow.
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Postby CyberTractor » 02 Aug 2008, 06:36

I don't like Vista because for some unknown reason I couldn't play WC3. I'm getting a new computer soon with Vista. If I still can't play WC3, oh well.

I'm going to be able to play Left for Dead and Spore. :)
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Postby Tetsubo » 02 Aug 2008, 06:59

CyberTractor wrote:I don't like Vista because for some unknown reason I couldn't play WC3. I'm getting a new computer soon with Vista. If I still can't play WC3, oh well.

I'm going to be able to play Left for Dead and Spore. :)


I think many sellers are offering XP in place of Vista now.
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Postby Beta-guy » 02 Aug 2008, 07:04

Tetsubo wrote:
CyberTractor wrote:I don't like Vista because for some unknown reason I couldn't play WC3. I'm getting a new computer soon with Vista. If I still can't play WC3, oh well.

I'm going to be able to play Left for Dead and Spore. :)


I think many sellers are offering XP in place of Vista now.


Direct OEM and retail sales of Windows XP ceased on June 30, 2008, although it is still possible to obtain Windows XP from System Builders [4] (smaller OEMs who sell assembled computers) until January 31, 2009 or by purchasing Windows Vista Ultimate or Business and then downgrading to Windows XP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP
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Postby tak197 » 02 Aug 2008, 14:54

(NOTE: This is from a long time user of Windows who has also used Mac a good deal. Opinions should be treated as such.)

I agree on the notion that it's easy to have a positive view on Vista with a professional there to help you out. I mean the biggest reason that I personally like using Vista is because I took the time to learn it and had professional help accessible to me. But if I had gotten it and had to, say, write a thesis in the next week, I would have major issues with using Vista because I have little time to learn the nuances of Vista.

I will admit that I dont like using the Mac OS because, even though I was given the chance to learn it, I had less time to learn it than I did with Windows. If I have to, I can find my way around Macs pretty well, but I still struggle with working on a Mac longterm versus a PC, which I learned to use quickly. Granted, if someone sat me down with a Mac and gave me the time and professional instruction to use it, I would enjoy it more (especially since I would love to learn how to edit movies with FCP [iMovie is okay, but I want to do more])

There really is no such thing as a "user-friendly OS" because you still have to learn how to use it.
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Postby Zed Alpha » 02 Aug 2008, 16:19

Honestly, I'm going with PC over Mac any day. Windows is what I grew up with, I tried out Mac, and I'll stick with it.
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Postby CyberTractor » 02 Aug 2008, 16:24

If you were raised with a PC, chances are you're not going to want to switch over to Mac simply because it means growing accustomed to something you're not used to.

I hate the bubbly look of Macs, but as long as I can change it to something more blocky (I like blocks.) I'll be happy.

I like 90 degree angles and straight lines. Curved edges can go to hell.
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