Computer Bloat

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Zeophlite
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Computer Bloat

Postby Zeophlite » 30 Oct 2008, 00:30

Hey guys. Thought I'd turn to you for help in PC matters. This is in two parts, my story, so feel free to skip down if you'd rather miss my misfortune.


#############
So, my PC has always been crashing but recently, the monitor has not been turning on. That is, the PC box turns on, the monitor turns on displays "Input device cannot be found" and then remains in standby.

So I took it into local computer shop for repairs.

Got it back, they said "hard drive broken, its been reimaged".
Plugged it in, turns on once, then crashes. Try to reboot, same as before.

Took it back, this time with monitor. Monitor under warantee, they'd have to send it in, and it would take some time. I've got a laptop so fine. They say "possibly the cable wasn't in properly". Rhhiiight. I was busy, couldn't pick it up. They called back a few days later. "Incorrect uninstall of ZoneAlarm". They fixed it, slapped me with $88, gonna pick it up later (and question them about that).

I'm a little suspicious about them now. What should I do?


#############
Now I've decided ZoneAlarm = bad. What is your opinions on ZA?

Also, I've realised that I've basically bloated up my PC with HEAPS of Anti-spy/mal/ad/bad ware software. I'm wondering what do you use for PC security (and yes PC, not mac).

My Laptop runs Vista (its a HP dv6528tx) and before I start going on a witch hunt, I was wondering what your advice was? (oh, I'm a uni student, thus free is good)
Currently, it has:
- AVG Anti-Virus free 8.0
- Spybot Search & Destroy 1.6
- Windows Firewall
- Windows Defender
- Spyware Blaster

I'm wondering, am I secure? am I paranoid? do I need this, or can I get rid of it.

What do you use?

Cheers,

Daniel
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Postby tamaness » 30 Oct 2008, 01:03

I use Avira Antivir free for AV, Spybot S&D for AS, and no firewall. I'm also careful, and remove spyware for a living.

My opinion of ZA is that it is complete and utter crap. It craps up the winsock stack, and it's impossible to allow SMB (standard windows network-based file sharing protocol for LANs) through it.

Spyware Blaster doesn't do protection, so much as it alters the hosts file in order to prevent known infected sites from being queried from your computer. it's a good idea to have this in conjunction with a good AV/AS solution.

AVG works well. nagware.

Windows firewall: there is a picture illustrating the concept well Image. It prevents outgoing connections just fine, but if you don't have a rule for the port, incoming connections are allowed in.

Windows defender is kind of a joke. MS bought a good product coming into its own and crapped it up. If they stayed up on definitions, it'd be a solid piece of security software, but it's usually a few weeks behind most other antimalware software.

You might try ClamAV for Windows, if they've fixed the terrible frontend that it used to have.

Avira Antivir free is great, if you don't mind nagware.

Spybot is solid, but teatimer, the proactive guard software, is annoying, and if you use "classic" themes in WinXP or Vista, it is unusable.

I reccomend having Spybot, and either AVG free or Antivir Free, and using Spyware Blaster as a supplement to Spybot's Immunization. For proactive security, I reccomend installing Firefox, and using NoScript and AdBlockPlus. You can whitelist scripts and ads from certain servers, and then block all the rest. When I have issues with a site as-is, I enable scripts temporarily, and then revoke permissions when I'm done with the site.

SandboxIE is a great little program for testing unfamiliar software. I reccomend that all people use it to test programs before installing them on the machine proper. Be aware that some spyware vendors are wising up to virtual machines and sandboxes, and that the payload won't drop in those environments 100% of the time. Always scan files with your AV/AS before running them.

Keep Windows up-to-date.

Improper uninstallation of ZoneAlarm is a total crock, and you should call the service company's corporate office and let them know. ZA has an uninstaller. The uninstaller removes the program, nothing more. There is no way to botch the uninstall unless a third-party program botches it for you. (as far as I am currently aware.)
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Postby Cake » 30 Oct 2008, 01:06

Listen. I only allow the windows firewall to be up. I don't install anti-virus or any of that crap. I never get viruses. I think it has something to do with me not visiting porn sites, or any otherwise questionable sites. You just have to be a bit careful is all. Also, don't take your computer to any store to get repaired. The internet is a very useful tool for figuring out problems, especially those that are computer related. If you just can't figure out the computer (I have a friend like that), then chances are you know someone competent with the computer. We work cheaply. Just make him some dinner or something.
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Postby tamaness » 30 Oct 2008, 01:16

Cake wrote:Listen. I only allow the windows firewall to be up. I don't install anti-virus or any of that crap. I never get viruses. I think it has something to do with me not visiting porn sites, or any otherwise questionable sites. You just have to be a bit careful is all. Also, don't take your computer to any store to get repaired. The internet is a very useful tool for figuring out problems, especially those that are computer related. If you just can't figure out the computer (I have a friend like that), then chances are you know someone competent with the computer. We work cheaply. Just make him some dinner or something.


QFT. I'll fix friends' computers for free. I fix computers for a living, and the shop I work for charges $200 to remove viruses. If I charged hourly, I'd be doing it for about $50 (unless you have mondo uber infections, in which case I'll be backing up your files, and asking you for recovery CDs).

I download stuff in a questionably legal manner, so security software is good to have. I also like to play with viruses. I'm trying to find a sample of the one that jumps from flash-drive to computer to flash-drive and changes the IE title text to "Hacked by Godzilla."

I still am not convinced that Windows Firewall is anything but a border guard letting everyone in, and no-one out unless they have a passport.
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Postby empath » 30 Oct 2008, 01:23

madAlric wrote:My opinion of ZA is that it is complete and utter crap. It craps up the winsock stack, and it's impossible to allow SMB (standard windows network-based file sharing protocol for LANs) through it.


Aye, it's pretty much this:
Image

It works...only too well.


Improper uninstallation of ZoneAlarm is a total crock, and you should call the service company's corporate office and let them know. ZA has an uninstaller. The uninstaller removes the program, nothing more. There is no way to botch the uninstall unless a third-party program botches it for you. (as far as I am currently aware.)


Now the thing to remember is that ZA used to be virtually impossible to uninstall; I would see plenty of computers completely borked and needing FDISK (yeah, that's how long ago, tho) to recover from this. That was in the past, and the app's provider has since resolved the issue. It sounds like your 'dis-service' staff are semi-knowledgable about this ins and outs of the 'computer security industry'...of about five years ago.

I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're merely incompetent and just making up explanations for the problem they can't figure out, rather than out-and-out malignant and trying to overtly con you.

Still treat them like plague carriers, tho. :D
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Postby Cureless_Poison » 30 Oct 2008, 01:23

I use ZoneAlarm, BlackIce, and my own fine tuned custom network firewall.

No pirates commandeering my computer!
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Postby masamune » 30 Oct 2008, 01:42

i've never had any issues with comodo firewall. it's more work than windows firewall, but you know exactly what's going on at all times(and it's free). i use spybot and occasionally ad-aware for spy/adware. as said earlier, use firefox to block anything from your browser, and make sure you're careful about which porn/warez/torrent sites you go to. zone alarm, as with norton, are notorious for making computers sick. i never had so many problems with my pc until i installed a norton suite. if you've got loads of infections, perhaps a clean install is the best path, if possible. sometimes you'll have to track down certain registry keys and/or folders/files regardless of what programs you use.
there are plenty of spyware/malware forums around and hijackthis is handy for finding out all running processes, and if need be, send/post a log file to someone.
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Postby Dutch guy » 30 Oct 2008, 04:48

About the first story. Yes, it does make me think they are not that competent and you should not go there again. AND, if you brought your computer in just to have the monitor thing fixed. And they didn't contact you about the 88 dollar "repair job" on the ZA install, they can not force you to pay the 88 dollars. It's like bringing your car to a garage to have the oil change, and they give it a new interior and full respray additional to the oil change. All they can charge you for is the oil change, as you didn't agree to the painting.

As for Spyware/virus programs, you might be a little over the top. Like said, the first thing I did on both my comp and my laptop was disable Microsoft's Firewall (And all other Internet "protection" native Windows.)

I then installed Firefox and Spybot S&D. Other than that I only use HiJack THIS, if something does get infected (Only happened once when somebody at the freaking Laptop Service Centre downloaded a Pixeltester from some crappy website) and I occasionally run the Kaspersky Online scan.

I've never had any trouble with this setup. And best of all it's not such a resource hog as a lot of anti-virus and anti spyware stuff. My machine is starting to show it's age, and having heavy programs running in the background means it just goes totally useless.
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Wraith
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Re: Computer Bloat

Postby Wraith » 30 Oct 2008, 10:18

Zeophlite wrote:#############
So, my PC has always been crashing but recently, the monitor has not been turning on. That is, the PC box turns on, the monitor turns on displays "Input device cannot be found" and then remains in standby.

So I took it into local computer shop for repairs.

Got it back, they said "hard drive broken, its been reimaged".
Plugged it in, turns on once, then crashes. Try to reboot, same as before.


Sounds like Geek Squad.

Zeophlite wrote:Took it back, this time with monitor. Monitor under warantee, they'd have to send it in, and it would take some time. I've got a laptop so fine.


Wow. They sent it back to the manufacturer. Thank God you took it to them, huh? Did they give you your money back for reimaging the hard drive that clearly wasn't the problem in the first place?

Zeophlite wrote:
They say "possibly the cable wasn't in properly". Rhhiiight. I was busy, couldn't pick it up. They called back a few days later. "Incorrect uninstall of ZoneAlarm". They fixed it, slapped me with $88, gonna pick it up later (and question them about that).

I'm a little suspicious about them now. What should I do?


Well, for starters, never go back to them, as that is complete bull shit. A borked uninstall is not gonna prevent the system from displaying.

Zeophlite wrote:#############
Now I've decided ZoneAlarm = bad. What is your opinions on ZA?


Which version? Overall, I've found that ZA is the second best firewall on the market behind Comodo (which is too complex for the average user, imo). You just have to turn off the on-access scanner or it will slow your system down. I'd say get Zone Alarm Pro and then suppliment with a good AV product like Kaspersky or NOD32.

Zeophlite wrote:Also, I've realised that I've basically bloated up my PC with HEAPS of Anti-spy/mal/ad/bad ware software. I'm wondering what do you use for PC security (and yes PC, not mac).

My Laptop runs Vista (its a HP dv6528tx) and before I start going on a witch hunt, I was wondering what your advice was? (oh, I'm a uni student, thus free is good)
Currently, it has:
- AVG Anti-Virus free 8.0
- Spybot Search & Destroy 1.6
- Windows Firewall
- Windows Defender
- Spyware Blaster

I'm wondering, am I secure? am I paranoid? do I need this, or can I get rid of it.

What do you use?

Cheers,

Daniel


replace Spybot with Spywaredoctor basic edition from the Google pack, and replace Windows Firewall with Zone Alarm free edition. If you want free protection, those, combined with AVG is your best bet. If you want to splurge a little, go with Kaspersky internet security.
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Postby Wraith » 30 Oct 2008, 10:27

madAlric wrote:My opinion of ZA is that it is complete and utter crap. It craps up the winsock stack, and it's impossible to allow SMB (standard windows network-based file sharing protocol for LANs) through it.


If you think it's impossible to share files through ZA, you desperately need to expand your knowledgebase. I do it all the time without incident.


madAlric wrote:Spyware Blaster doesn't do protection, so much as it alters the hosts file in order to prevent known infected sites from being queried from your computer.


How is that not protection?

madAlric wrote:Windows defender is kind of a joke. MS bought a good product coming into its own and crapped it up. If they stayed up on definitions, it'd be a solid piece of security software, but it's usually a few weeks behind most other antimalware software.


Dude, that thing was never anything BUT a joke. I remember when a lot of people said that MS Antispywere was amazing because it kept finding things that others didn't. I testeed it rather thuroughly and found that the REASON it found so much was because it had a ridiculous amount of false positives, and even identified things that weren't even there!


madAlric wrote:I reccomend having Spybot, and either AVG free or Antivir Free, and using Spyware Blaster as a supplement to Spybot's Immunization. For proactive security, I reccomend installing Firefox, and using NoScript and AdBlockPlus. You can whitelist scripts and ads from certain servers, and then block all the rest. When I have issues with a site as-is, I enable scripts temporarily, and then revoke permissions when I'm done with the site.


Peachy. So you're using the site without Graham, Paul & co getting anything from it because the ads that help pay for the site you're posting are all blocked.

madAlric wrote:Improper uninstallation of ZoneAlarm is a total crock, and you should call the service company's corporate office and let them know. ZA has an uninstaller. The uninstaller removes the program, nothing more. There is no way to botch the uninstall unless a third-party program botches it for you. (as far as I am currently aware.)


Half true. The improper uninstallation was a total crock. But to say there's no way to botch it is just as big of a crock. Simply put, sometimes the uninstall fails. Fragments get left behind that can cause problems. I've seen it.
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Postby Wraith » 30 Oct 2008, 10:32

Cake wrote:Listen. I only allow the windows firewall to be up. I don't install anti-virus or any of that crap. I never get viruses.


How do you know? You could have a well written peace of spyware on your system and not even know it. The best true spyware just sits and the background and happily compiles data on your activities, sending them out along the way. If you don't have protection, who's to say that's not happening?

madAlric wrote:I think it has something to do with me not visiting porn sites, or any otherwise questionable sites. You just have to be a bit careful is all. Also, don't take your computer to any store to get repaired. The internet is a very useful tool for figuring out problems, especially those that are computer related. If you just can't figure out the computer (I have a friend like that), then chances are you know someone competent with the computer. We work cheaply. Just make him some dinner or something.


Hrmmm, I half agree. The problem is that litterally twice a week, at least, I hear from my clients "well, I had this problem, and my friend down the street knows a lot about computers, so he came over to fix it, and now I can't..." and usually, when I hear this story, I can tell that the person they asked for helped borked it far worse than it was to begin with.
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Postby Zeophlite » 05 Nov 2008, 20:39

Hey all,

First of all, thankyou for your help, and thoughtful replies.

I called back the computer store guy (I don't really need the PC right now) and I asked him about ZA. He said that from what they could see, that someone simply deleted ZA (well not me, and noone else really uses it. Maybe a virus or something? Or maybe I did, I really don't think so though). And so, the computer was making logs, saying "Cannot start ZA, will try again soon".

One second later,
"Cannot start ZA, will try again soon".

And so this would repeat, until the computer froze.

The guys ran more diagnostics, like checking the memory, hard drive, and they benchmarked it, to see if anything was slowing it down. Nothing was wrong, and they tested the monitor and said it was fine.

So I guess now my PC won't crash.

I'm going to pick it up tonight (in about 3 hrs, actually), pay them, and start it up at home, and see how it goes. Hopefully this is the end of it.


Thankyou for all your insight into this, the LRR forums does seem to have a tech literate crowd.

Cheers,

Dan
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Postby Corax » 05 Nov 2008, 21:09

i use McAffee, and system restore if anything goes wrong, so far nothing has gone wrong.
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Postby spartanhelmet » 05 Nov 2008, 23:11

Wraith wrote:If you don't have protection, who's to say that's not happening?

Let's face it... using that as a metaphor, apart from one or two products, PC protection is like having a VERY leaky condom. Further to that, Zone Alarm is like using a flamethrower while a guy pokes you ever 5 seconds, and Norton is like a dodgy insurance company.

Right now, I use neither anti-virus or contraception... I have no need for either right now.
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Postby masamune » 05 Nov 2008, 23:49

spartanhelmet wrote:Let's face it... using that as a metaphor, apart from one or two products, PC protection is like having a VERY leaky condom. Further to that, Zone Alarm is like using a flamethrower while a guy pokes you ever 5 seconds, and Norton is like a dodgy insurance company.

Right now, I use neither anti-virus or contraception... I have no need for either right now.


lol :P
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Postby Wraith » 05 Nov 2008, 23:59

spartanhelmet wrote:
Wraith wrote:If you don't have protection, who's to say that's not happening?

Let's face it... using that as a metaphor, apart from one or two products, PC protection is like having a VERY leaky condom. Further to that, Zone Alarm is like using a flamethrower while a guy pokes you ever 5 seconds, and Norton is like a dodgy insurance company.


If your pc protection is "leaky" then you're doing it wrong.
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Postby Wraith » 06 Nov 2008, 00:04

Corax wrote:i use McAffee, and system restore if anything goes wrong, so far nothing has gone wrong.


Dude, of all the major brand Anti-Malware products out there, McAfee is hands down the worst, by far. No exceptions. AVG and Avast are both free products, and while not in the same league as Kaspersky or Eset, I'd easily reccomend them over crapAfee. At least three or four times a month I have to kill viruses on people's computers who have McAfee on their systems. It didn't do jack against the viruses plaguing their computers, but it quickly tries to delete my diagnostic and removal software, which it falsely identifies as a threat. I don't even bother running a scan with it, the first step in my Virus removal process is to remove all traces of McAfee.
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Postby tak197 » 06 Nov 2008, 12:43

Truth is, I bought Norton 360 and have it as a subscription, and I find that it is user-friendly and easy to set up. It has stuff for both online work, disk cleanup, backup, and so on. I even have a large part of their server to use online backup should my computer crash. Long story short, if you have the money to shell out on it, Norton 360 is a good program.

Wraith, what would you say about it?
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Postby Master Gunner » 06 Nov 2008, 13:07

As I too use Norton, and have for as long as I can remember, it would be nice to know if it is actually any good. Wraith?
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Postby Alex Steacy » 06 Nov 2008, 13:24

Time for a Mac.
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Postby Wraith » 06 Nov 2008, 13:40

tak197 wrote:Truth is, I bought Norton 360 and have it as a subscription, and I find that it is user-friendly and easy to set up. It has stuff for both online work, disk cleanup, backup, and so on. I even have a large part of their server to use online backup should my computer crash. Long story short, if you have the money to shell out on it, Norton 360 is a good program.

Wraith, what would you say about it?


I'm a light detection/removal upgrade away from being head-over-heels in love with it, for exactly the reasons you described. It's completely user friendly, and packed with more features than any other security suite I've seen. Defragging, disk optimization, junk file cleaning, and most importanly, an efficient backup tool (though it could be improved with a better file selection option for the backup tool. But I hear that's coming in V3.). In the past 2 years, Norton has really upped its game. They really went down the toilet between 2003 and 2006, but are making great strides forward. Right now, all they need is to improve their virus detection and removal ability, and make it work better in safe mode.

In the mean time, it does offer very good protection. Just not quite in the same class as Kaspersky and NOD32.[/list]
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Postby Evisr » 06 Nov 2008, 13:43

Personally I only use a firewall, hardware (aka on router). No anti-spyware, anti-virus, or additional firewalls. Reason is cause I watch what I surf, been like this for 4 years and haven't had a problem. Not to sound like a cock but I am kinda a pro when it comes to PCs. Heck I freaking water-cool my computer. Anyways...

What I recommend to other is stick with Windows Firewall (unless you have a router with a firewall in it. ALWAYS PICK HARDWARE FIREWALLS OVER SOFTWARE). It always seems to do a good job and uses very little CPU/memory.

If your looking for free anti-virus (legal) then use AVG, if you know how to pirate software or want to buy something good, try out ESET NOD32. NOD32 has a high sucess rate and uses 3-5 MBs of memory in the background.

Windows Defender is great but AVG and NOD32 both have anti-spyware built in. Your choice on either using both or just one.
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Postby Wraith » 06 Nov 2008, 14:09

Alex Steacy wrote:Time for a Mac.


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Postby Lord Chrusher » 06 Nov 2008, 14:16

Alex Steacy wrote:Time for Linux.


With Vista on my laptop I have had no problem with just using AVG on top of the Windows supplied software. Admittedly I only use Firefox with NoScript, my use of software of dubious legality has declined and I pretty much only use Windows for games.

My desktop is a bit of a mess with a long expired copy of Norton antivirus. It seems stable and I old use it for gaming so I feel no need to disturb it.
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Postby Wraith » 06 Nov 2008, 14:18

Evisr wrote:Personally I only use a firewall, hardware (aka on router). No anti-spyware, anti-virus, or additional firewalls. Reason is cause I watch what I surf, been like this for 4 years and haven't had a problem. Not to sound like a cock but I am kinda a pro when it comes to PCs. Heck I freaking water-cool my computer. Anyways...


You haven't had a virus. The best of your knowledge. That's kind of like saying "I don't bother with AIDs tests because I'm careful with who I sleep with. I've been sexually active for years, and I'm still clean." How do you even know?

If you haven't downloaded a file with a virus attached to it, or been exposed to a potential infection, then you don't do nearly as much with your system as I do, "pro."

Evisr wrote:What I recommend to other is stick with Windows Firewall (unless you have a router with a firewall in it. ALWAYS PICK HARDWARE FIREWALLS OVER SOFTWARE). It always seems to do a good job and uses very little CPU/memory.


You and I have a very different definition of what a "good job" is. I do agree on the value of hardware firewalls, though. I use a hardware firewall on my network, and suppliment it with Comodo.

Evisr wrote:If your looking for free anti-virus (legal) then use AVG, if you know how to pirate software or want to buy something good, try out ESET NOD32. NOD32 has a high sucess rate and uses 3-5 MBs of memory in the background.


This much is true.

Evisr wrote:Windows Defender is great but AVG and NOD32 both have anti-spyware built in. Your choice on either using both or just one.


Windows defender is great? Have you ever actually tried treating a major spyware infection with Windows Defender? Do you actually test ANY of your security? Windows defender is the crap. AVG is pretty good, and NOD32 is great, but neith of them are going to bail you out of a heavy spyware infection. You want anti-spyware, go with Spyware Doctor, Spy Sweeper, or Counter-Spy.
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