Watchmen reaction thread, with Spoilers

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Postby Nevrmore » 07 Mar 2009, 21:13

ecocd wrote:I was told about the giant squid after the movie by a friend and I think the movie's set-up, especially with multiple world cities getting leveled, is so much more cinematic that the giant squid would've ruined the movie. (Plus, if only NYC was leveled, why wouldn't the Soviets have rushed to take advantage?)

In the book, it was half about uniting against a new threat, and half about putting aside their differences to help America rebuild.

Regarding the ending, it's not the bait-and-switch catastrophe that I personally didn't like, it's...Well, it's pretty much everything that happens at Karnak (That'd be Veidt's Antarctic base, if you didn't catch from the throwaway line in the movie).

Oh shit fanboying ahead:

First, in the movie, Nite-Owl and Rorschach are instantly sold on the idea that Veidt is planning something big and that he's just completely gone off the deep end, which is unusual (for Nite-Owl) considering they've been friends so long (though in the film Veidt does have a distinct air of Bond villainy about him that can't really be denied). In the book Nite-Owl is skeptically chiding everything that Adrian is telling him, which makes the "I did it 35 minutes ago." line feel so much more powerful. There's one panel, right after he says it, of Rorschach and Nite-Owl just staring at him, and you can tell that Nite-Owl just got hit with the weight of the fact that Ozy might not be lying after all.

Second, film-Veidt was pretending to watch TV while Rorschach approached, whereas in the book he was pretending to eat dinner. This really doesn't have any bearing on the story at all, but it robbed the film of the panel where Ozy punches Rorschach after standing up from his seat and calmly saying, "Manners."

Third, they never explain where Laurie gets the gun from in the movie. In the comic she picks it up from Detective Fine's body right before they teleport from New York to Karnak. That, like Bubastis' existence, is a pretty big hanging thread in the film. Speaking of the gun, I was also a bit irked that they had (Laurie, I think) offhandedly mention that Veidt is rumored to be able to catch bullets in the movie, whereas in the book he explains that he would have been safe if the would-be assassin had aimed for him (instead of his assistant) because "I guess I would have just had to catch the bullet then." When Nite-Owl says that's impossible, he gives the world's best shit-eating grin.

Fourth, no "I DID IT!"? That really sold the fact, for me at least, that Adrian really had convinced himself he had done the right thing (at least until point five). In the film he still seemed like he was just kind of justifying his douchebaggery.

Fifth, I was seriously pissed that Laurie was the last person Manhatten talked to in the movie, and that she gave the "Nothing ever ends" line instead of him. In the book, Manhatten visits Veidt right before he leaves for another galaxy, and Adrian asks him, "I did the right thing, didn't I? It worked out in the end, right?" to which Manhatten gives the "Nothing ends. Nothing ever ends." line. That one moment of self-doubt that all his meticulous planning, and his killing to keep the secret intact, might have been for nothing, went a long way in humanizing his character. I mean, it seems like the film's analogue for that was the added scene where Adrian lets Nite-Owl beat him up a bit after witnessing Rorschach's death, but that wasn't so much a "I understand what I did was horrible, and I fully accept the punishment" thing so much a "Do whatever you want, you know that in the end, I was right."

I can't really think of anything else about the ending right now...If I do, I may amend this post to add it in.
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Postby Alja-Markir » 07 Mar 2009, 21:46

Alex Steacy wrote:I made a little comic to sum up why I hate exposition so much.

Now, I understand the people aren't that bright, but I think that dumbing movies down to make them palatable to the average moron is just another contributing factor to the fast-slipping level of intelligence in this world. It shows an intense contempt for the audience when you spoonfeed them story, and marginally intelligent people like myself find it aggravating. Give us some credit for our intellect!

(Click to enlarge)
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Point of note, Alex, if I may...

A static visual of any sort, no matter what the content, is something that the reader can peruse and ingest at their own pace. When you have a graphic novel or comic strip or any sort of unchanging visual medium, people can take the time to look at the details, to pick up on things that aren't directly stated, to savor the work, and yes, even to reread it and notice new details that they had missed previously.

A major film, however, does not have this luxury of time. The viewer can't stop to puzzle over a sequence they fail to immediately understand. They are immediately swept into the next shot, and they feel they missed something and can't find out what it was. Conversely, a reader can read a page and be confused, then reread it and notice a pivotal detail, or take it all in again, whatever.

If it seems like the film was dumbed down, ask yourself how much time you spent reading the original. Ask yourself how many details you really honestly needed to see two or three times to grasp properly. And not just minor details, major ones.

Things need to be made less subtle, unless you want your viewers to get lost. You can make a static visual medium confusing, because people can sit and riddle it out. You can't make a movie confusing, because people feel it's unfair that they miss things and can't stop to "reread". Now, I'm certain a good many people would love movies like that, and hell, that kind of movie even exists and is made semi-regularly. But not as a major blockbuster film.

~Alja~
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Postby Kdz » 07 Mar 2009, 21:56

I must admit that even if I don't think it was too ridiculous the way it was handled in the film (more obvious than necessary? sure. OMG RuinedFOREVER? No.), that image Alex made is hilarious.
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Postby Alex Steacy » 07 Mar 2009, 22:14

You make a damn good point, Alja.

However, even with that insight I still think they went too far when the guy spills his guts to Rorschach - you know, in case you STILL didn't get it let's go right out and SAY it. Same with the "he's your father" line. Hence my little strip.
Also, who was Rorschach talking to when he said that "animals get put down" line? Maybe he thought the chopping block would enjoy a snappy one-liner.

But otherwise I'd say you're on the money. Seems I forgot about the contrast in media while comparing the changes in content.

[edit] I just realized that while thickly sarcastic, my comic isn't actually far off the movie. There's no note, but the killer really does confess his crimes to Rorschach. Also what happened to Rorschact burning the building down and leaving him with the hacksaw?
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Postby DmitriW » 07 Mar 2009, 22:22

Truthfully, Alex, I didn't make the connection of Eddie being Silk Spectre II's daddy until -as- Manhattan was delivering the line. In hindsight, a lot of things made more sense after that--especially Mama Jupiter yelling at the Comedian for hitting on her daughter--but until Manhattan was halfway through the "needless" expository line, I didn't get it.
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Postby Master Gunner » 07 Mar 2009, 22:40

I saw it coming from the first time they showed that flashback, but then again, I'm a cynical bastard, and had probably read it somewhere in the past anyways. Also, I quickly forgot about it, because of the rest of the movie.
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Postby CyberTractor » 07 Mar 2009, 23:25

Alja makes a good point. Being as though I knew what happened beforehand, I knew as soon as the scene started what the girl's fate was. Perhaps without the clues getting more and more obvious, I wouldn't have known exactly what happened without the shoe.
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Postby ariadinotte » 07 Mar 2009, 23:28

Saw it twice, thought it was amazing. Did anyone else notice that during the scene where Laurie leaves Dr.Manhattan that behind Adrian on the TV theres a yellow sign that says something that I couldn't make out all of, but the first letter of every word spells out "SQUID" ?
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Postby Corvis29 » 08 Mar 2009, 00:03

Matt wrote:The director's cut has like 15 more minutes of Manhattan Peen.

-m


Honestly out of 155 minutes of movie there had to be at the very least 100 minutes of Blue peen... Honestly I've seen less full frontal nudity in pornography.. I will say I was thinking I wouldn't like the new ending but it amazed me how well it worked.. Other than that Jackie Earle Haley is the voice of Rorschach that's exactly what I expected him to sound like.. Matthew Goode did well with the personality but he did did not fill out the character I would have expected a larger guy in that part.. Over all I cant wait till I can watch this at home Dumbass towny lowlife bastards couldn't stop laughing over florescent dick on a big screen..

and I wonder whats next..

Transmetropolitan?
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Postby Kdz » 08 Mar 2009, 00:05

Manhattan's penis could not have had more than 15 minutes of screen time, total. I love exaggeration too, but come on.

And it's not like that shots that featured it centered on it, it just happened to be there.
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Postby Nevrmore » 08 Mar 2009, 00:20

Alja-Markir wrote:Point of note, Alex, if I may...

A static visual of any sort, no matter what the content, is something that the reader can peruse and ingest at their own pace. When you have a graphic novel or comic strip or any sort of unchanging visual medium, people can take the time to look at the details, to pick up on things that aren't directly stated, to savor the work, and yes, even to reread it and notice new details that they had missed previously.

A major film, however, does not have this luxury of time. The viewer can't stop to puzzle over a sequence they fail to immediately understand. They are immediately swept into the next shot, and they feel they missed something and can't find out what it was. Conversely, a reader can read a page and be confused, then reread it and notice a pivotal detail, or take it all in again, whatever.

If it seems like the film was dumbed down, ask yourself how much time you spent reading the original. Ask yourself how many details you really honestly needed to see two or three times to grasp properly. And not just minor details, major ones.

Things need to be made less subtle, unless you want your viewers to get lost. You can make a static visual medium confusing, because people can sit and riddle it out. You can't make a movie confusing, because people feel it's unfair that they miss things and can't stop to "reread". Now, I'm certain a good many people would love movies like that, and hell, that kind of movie even exists and is made semi-regularly. But not as a major blockbuster film.

~Alja~

I still don't understand the point of some of the "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, DOY." moments. I mean, they took a rather lovingly long time showing Rorschach carefully trace the fresh cut on the cutting board with his finger, and examine the cleaver, to look in the furnace and find the underwear. It seemed like they were going for a "The audience can figure this out." thing, but then, just in case there were any retards amongst us, they added in that little extra that sure, might bring about an understanding for them, but just makes everybody else groan and hate the movie a little bit more.
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Postby Kdz » 08 Mar 2009, 00:55

Consider also:

I'm a huge fan of the justice system. You know, innocent til proven guilty and all. So, yeah, the evidence was pretty damning, but up until you see the foot in the leg, it was still remotely possible that the evidence was misleading, and if there was any doubt in our minds that the guy was innocent, it would have completely altered the audience's (at least those who felt that way) perception of Rorshach.

While it would have made his breakdown that much crazier, it would have also made it more alienating.

Just a thought.
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Postby Shandi » 08 Mar 2009, 01:57

I could love that movie just for the scene of the nuclear explosion when the two guys grab each other. Seriously love that.

I didn't know anything about the Watchmen, but I like the movie. Wow Rorschach.
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Postby Alex Steacy » 08 Mar 2009, 09:16

Kdz wrote:Consider also:

I'm a huge fan of the justice system. You know, innocent til proven guilty and all. So, yeah, the evidence was pretty damning, but up until you see the foot in the leg, it was still remotely possible that the evidence was misleading, and if there was any doubt in our minds that the guy was innocent, it would have completely altered the audience's (at least those who felt that way) perception of Rorshach.

While it would have made his breakdown that much crazier, it would have also made it more alienating.

Just a thought.


Yeah, but this is a movie, not a court case. If it was an episode of CSI there would be cause to doubt event the most obvious evidence, but that's not the case in Watchmen. The movie's TRYING to tell you something, and I think they showed it just perfectly, but they just shoved it a little too far.

What they could have done was just do a crosscut between Rorschach seeing the dogs with the bone, looking at the undies, looking back at the bone, maybe a little music sting as his breath rasps and fingers tighten... That would make the connection pretty clear to me without being totally hamfisted.
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Postby King Kool » 08 Mar 2009, 13:22

Nobody's brought up the music yet, which was my brother's biggest problem with it. The music during the funeral was absolutely killer, he said. I think the "Ride of the Valkyries" playing during Manhattan destroying the VC was pretty bad. Though the opening was awesome.
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Postby TheRocket » 08 Mar 2009, 15:46

[quote="King Kool"]Nobody's brought up the music yet...quote]


Have.. you not been reading the thread?
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Postby King Kool » 08 Mar 2009, 15:53

TheRocketSiobhan wrote:
King Kool wrote:Nobody's brought up the music yet...quote]


Have.. you not been reading the thread?


Yeah, I didn't bother re-reading the thread. Sue me.
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Postby Alja-Markir » 08 Mar 2009, 15:56

We'll see you in court!

*Dunn Dunn!*

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Postby King Kool » 08 Mar 2009, 16:00

I'll defend with Shark, Shark, Shark and Remora!

(ha! They're better than Bear, Bear, Bear and Grr!)
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Postby Tensen01 » 08 Mar 2009, 16:37

I'm going to keep my opinion down to 7 words...

As a Watchmen fanboy... I loved it.
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Postby CyberTractor » 08 Mar 2009, 16:58

Alex Steacy wrote:Also what happened to Rorschact burning the building down and leaving him with the hacksaw?


People would probably have drawn parallels with Saw, so they left it out.
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Postby Nevrmore » 08 Mar 2009, 17:00

CyberTractor wrote:
Alex Steacy wrote:Also what happened to Rorschact burning the building down and leaving him with the hacksaw?


People would probably have drawn parallels with Saw, so they left it out.

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Postby Graham » 08 Mar 2009, 17:40

All the music is from the comic, mentioned in the interstitial chapters.

Everyone in this thread who didn't like the movie has contradicted themselves. You're complaining that they changed the book in one breath, and then complaining that they stayed too close in another.
Give it a rest.
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Postby Kdz » 08 Mar 2009, 18:02

Graham wrote:All the music is from the comic, mentioned in the interstitial chapters.



Something I mentioned on the first page, and yet no one cared to talk about. Even the people who've read the comic.
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Postby Nevrmore » 08 Mar 2009, 18:15

Graham wrote:All the music is from the comic, mentioned in the interstitial chapters.

I'd check my book to see if this is true, but I lent my copy to someone who wanted to read it, so all I can say is that I definitely do not remember anything about the song "Hallelujah" in A Brother to Dragons.

Everyone in this thread who didn't like the movie has contradicted themselves. You're complaining that they changed the book in one breath, and then complaining that they stayed too close in another.
Give it a rest.

I don't really know what you're talking about. I don't remember seeing anybody saying anything about how they stuck too close to the comic and ended up messing it up.

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