My car got broken into last night

[Brad]

I am not happy about this. The thief netted perhaps 2 dollars in change for his efforts. I now have to pay a 300 dollar deductible to get my window replaced. I have never been particularly sympathetic towards the homeless and such that roam the neighborhood where this happened anyway, but I have to say, I am less so now.

The book "Starship Troopers" was different than the movie, it paid a lot more attention to the idea of citizenship, than bug fighting. The easiest way to become a citizen (you aren't born one) is to join the armed forces and serve. Basically, you aren't entitled to the rights of citizenship unless you have proven yourself worthy of them by contribution to the society that you are a citizen of. That makes sense to me. Kids get leeway until they're grown enough to make their impact on society, but after that you are entitled to rights, or you aren't. I'm not advocating the military here, more saying that the homeless in my city do nothing but drain resources, scare off tourism and rob every house within a 4 mile radius of the homeless shelter. They've been offered unskilled labour jobs by half a dozen construction companies but they turn it down because then they'd have to work for a living, rather than get taken care of by the state. And yet in Victoria a judge put forward that the government must allow the homeless to camp out in public parks if there aren't enough shelter beds.

I pay taxes. A lot of taxes in fact. I do my bit to try to make my city and country a little bit better every day and pay through the nose for the opportunity to do so. I've now been robbed by someone who not only does not do any of those things (the opposite in fact), but that the government has decided should not only be exempt from the expectation, but that some of the money that comes off of my taxes should go towards making his life better.

When I lived in Japan, there were no homeless and the crime rate was essentially 0. This isn't because Japanese police are better (in fact, they're a bit out of practice in my experience), it all comes down to pride. The Japanese think owning something second hand is dishonorable, stealing so much more so. But to have to beg or live off someone else' work dishonors oneself, their family and whole community. They would rather die. Yes, I'm very angry right now, but frankly Canada could use a bit more pride like that and a little less pinko handouts to those that had they been born in Japan would have had the good grace to kill themselves rather than be a part of that which harms their society.

[Graham]

I hope this thread stays civil, it's a pretty hot issue.

I will add one thing that aggravates me:
When you beg for change, and I (for whatever reason) say no, that does not give you license to get indignant at me and start hurling insults. Way to make a tough sell harder.

[gcninja]

not to mention, you know the suidicde rates through the roof, ive read you could walk up fuji and see people whove hung them selves, as well as their government is is MUCH better shape than most places. Hell, they have so much excess money they build government owned hotels that A) open up more jobs B) bring in more money for the government. They have laws against guns, and their mortality rtates like 7:100,000 as ours is 17:100,000 IIRC

On the homeless part, i dont give them money, i buy them a mcdonalds mean, because you dont know if they did it to themselves or just got fucked in life..

either way, sorry brad <_<

[Lyinginbedmon]

Yeah, if I'm in a great mood I'll give them some change, the last time I passed one I suggested an area of town that might prove more beneficial for them comfort and income wise. Usually I have my earphones in so people assume I just didn't hear them and I just wander right past.

The homeless in my region though is extremely low, I'm lucky (Is it lucky? Hmm...not sure) to see one hobo, maybe two at a stretch, in one jaunt into town.

[Elomin Sha]

I hear you Brad, I'm still bitter over that little ginger punk walking into my flat and pinching my bicycle.

[Master Gunner]

Not many homeless where I live either, but then again, I don't go downtown much, so they just may not be in my particular area of town.

My sympathies to you though Brad, my father got his truck broken into back when we lived in Ontario. Not fun times.

[ecocd]

Totally sucks about the car. At least around here, cars are really only broken into if they have a GPS, cell phone or iPod in plain view. There's very little random vandalism - it just doesn't pay.

As far as the homeless issues, that's something that's going to vary from society to society and I definitely get the feeling that you understand that. I do think it's worth putting a few points of contention out there, though.

I think there are very few people that would disagree that the homeless who remain homeless by choice and become a nuisance as a result are a problem for any society. Realistically, however, what percentage of the homeless is that? You're not paying your taxes to help them, you're paying your taxes to help the vast majority of those that require governmental assistance by necessity.

I would object most strenuously to lumping in, "rob every house within a 4 mile radius of the homeless shelter" with draining resources and scaring off tourism. There's a line to be drawn between criminal behavior and questionably-ethical behavior. That said, throwing these people in jail probably actually drains more resources than they consume as homeless people sleeping in a public park.

In the US, we have a whole host of problems working against the homeless or those trying to work themselves off of governmental-assistance. Based on welfare and work-to-welfare programs implemented in the US, the vast majority of people that are either homeless or getting government assistance are willing to work and would rather work to support themselves than rely on the government. Provide safe, affordable housing, child care and health care to these people and they'll work 40 hours a week to take care of their family. Those conditions simply don't exist for most people in that situation.

As far as citizenship is concerned, the US is extremely clear on this issue. SCOTUS (Supreme Court Of The United State) has ruled that the removal of citizenship of any natural born American is even more "cruel and unusual" punishment than death. Your arguments regarding citizenship are going to be a pretty hard sell to all but the most Libertarian (in US terms) of Americans. (Feel free to take your potshots here on the double-standard that naturalized citizens can have their citizenship revoked with little difficulty)

It's a mark of a mature society to take care of those that can't take care of themselves (temporarily or permanently). Ultimately that means we end up helping the few bad apples in every bushel of good ones.

[korri]

I knew someone who had their window broken and their battery stolen 3 times. They no longer lock the doors because they would rather just buy a new battery then a new battery and a new window...

[goat]

I don't have to deal with a lot of homeless here. Mainly just what we affectionately refer to as "can bums". Old folks mainly who come around and search dumpsters and parties for extra cans to turn in for a bit of change. They seem pretty nice, though I tend to steer clear of them (much like the squirrels here, they look nice, but it's best to play it safe).

With credentials out of the way, I have to say I agree with Brad about pride. The homeless problem in developed nations (not just Canada) stems from a lack of pride and respect. However, this is not just on the part of the homeless persons, themselves. Very often the problem can be traced to weak or malfunctioning rehabilitation services for the poor and homeless. Very often the homeless are unaware of their options, lack skills and have no base to get back on their feet (or are so disenfranchised and defeated that it makes no difference). The fault lies as much with those who wander our streets as with those who are tax-paying members of society.

[King Kool]

Three stories:

1. I've only given money to a homeless man three times: once in Washington DC, to a man who ranted something crazy, once in Boston, to the only homeless man who asked me out loud, and once in Providence, to a man who approached me and my Republican friend after we parked under a bridge. (thinking back, that whole thing could've gone VERY badly).

I never know if there's a good reason for it. I know I'm not going to use the money for anything specifically. It's always thinking about yourself in the same situation and hoping someone would be merciful, but then again, what did that person do to get there?

It goes against everything I believe about compassion, but giving money doesn't seem to be helpful to the city at the end of the day, either. But if there was a way for someone to pick themselves up all by themselves, I figure most of them would do it. (If I had been homeless for a few months and barely got enough to eat, I dunno if I would be able to do any construction work...) There's no good answer for this.

2. My brother's friend got his car broken into once. We didn't immediately assume it was a homeless guy (where I live is fairly suburban, so there's not much in the way of homless). We called him "Crack Claus," because we assumed he was a crackhead and that he took presents instead of giving them out.

They stole his credit cards and went to Wal-Mart and bought over a hundred dollars of stuff. At Wal-Mart, if you buy something for more than $100 bucks with a credit card, they're supposed to ask you for ID. This guy raised a stink and they let him use it anyway. If they HADN'T... then they woulda caught this guy, and hundreds of dollars of role-playing books (i'll remind you, completely worthless to Crack Claus unless he has an eBay account) and a few rare CDs may have been recovered.

3. While me and my brother were in Boston getting a voiceover for Everlasting, a man stopped us and asked if we had any money we could give him. He was broke and stranded with his wife, but didn't have enough gas to get all the way home. He just got out of the hospital (he showed me the stitches in his head). He stopped us because we 'looked like nice upstanding fellas' or something like that.

My brother got 40 bucks out of his bank account and gave it to him. We didn't bother asking for anyway to get paid back (but we also weren't completely sure it wasn't a scam, so this way he had no personal info on us other than our first names and that we're identical twins). He leaves and my brother and I go home.

To this day, we don't know if we did the right thing or are just suckers.

Just wanted to share that.

[dav3meier]

In the city i used to work at in Southern Ontario, they have a methadone clinic. Every morning on my way to work i walk past the clinic and see at least 30 homeless people lined up outside of this clinic. One day i finally walked in an asked the people who run the facility what exactly they were doing. Basically the government was paying for all the homeless people to get high every morning so they wouldn't kill themselves by sharing needles. The workers then went on to tell me that every day that also gave each person who came to the clinic $1.25 to go buy a Tim Horton's coffee or bagel or something. All of the money to pay for the drugs they were getting, and the dollar twenty-five were coming from tax payers so that the people could get a free high, and clog up the downtown streets every morning to get their dosage.

If people are getting free drugs, and enough money to survive each day by doing nothing, why would they bother working when they can survive off of what they have. I give these people enough money with taxes, i am not helping them out by giving them more of my money.

There is one exception to that. Homeless people that try to make a living for themselves. Every day there was a man, rain or shine, standing outside playing a fiddle all day. Every day i would give him a dollar. Finally one day he stopped me and we talked for a good half an hour during my lunch break and explained to me how he got to where he was, and that he refused to take from the government and wanted to work for his money, but all he knew how to do was play the fiddle. I'm not sure if he was bullshitting me or not, but for the entire four months of my co-op term i listened to him play every day, and dropped a dollar in his case.

In the same city, i was also mugged by a homeless man right outside of the police station. The man, about a foot shorter then me, attempted to check me, and brushed himself into the middle of the road and dropped his hat. He then ran to grab his hat and got up in my face and started spitting on me and poking me as i stood there looking down at him. He then hugged me and pushed me as he grabbed my wallet. I reached out and grabbed the back of his shirt tearing it near in half. I ran down the street chasing him trying to get my wallet back. I ran full tilt after him as he ran into the middle of the road. I ran out and dove on top of him and wrestled my wallet back from him. I grabbed both of his hands and went through his pockets to make sure he didn't have a knife and then struggled to drag him down the street to the police station. Once i got to the station i brought the guy in and tried to explain what happened and immediately we were both handcuffed because the man kept screaming that i attacked him. We were both put into a holding cell for a good half hour before the officer came back in. He first released the man who originally attacked me and then came to talk to me. I explained to the cop what happened and how pissed off i was that this was going on. The officer apologized and said to me "sorry we had no idea, we figured he was just some homeless person that ran into you and made you angry so you dragged him in here."

it is a retarded system, he attacks me, and they just released him. Not only does the government take my money to keep these people alive and high, they let the homeless wander the streets attacking people.

[JesterJ.]

it is a retarded system, he attacks me, and they just released him. Not only does the government take my money to keep these people alive and high, they let the homeless wander the streets attacking people.

It's your word vs. his, and people are innocent until proven guilty. It's not really a surprise they let him go.

[Master Gunner]

Uh...shouldn't they have just kept him until they had taken dav3meier's statement? Just in case, y'know, they guy had just tried to mug someone.

[Brad]

I should say that my beef with the homeless is primarily the homeless that reside in the salvation army shelter in my town specifically. Most shelters downtown don't allow drugs on the premises or drug dealing on the premises as much as that can be avoided. The guy who runs this place is so incredibly naive that he thinks he is doing good, but in reality is running a crack den/brothel and just not taking a piece of the profits. Every house within a four mile radius being robbed wasn't hyperbole. I don't think any business within 4 miles hasn't been robbed or had to clean up human feces from their back doors either since the sallyanne came into town.

Used to be there was an asylum in the lower mainland. It got shut down and all the crazies let out. Frankly, I'm fine with them. I wish it would reopen because it is criminal making them live on the streets where they have no chance. My town used to have one hobo. One. His name is Gordon. He's schizo. He's still around, but since the asylum closed he lost his legs from frost bite a couple winters ago. I buy him coffee and sandwich sometimes. Everyone in town does. He's ours. The folks I'm complaining about are the druggies and the homeless who have actively chosen their way of life and through either ignorance of options or active choice have not pulled themselves out of it. These are the ones that are causing problems (most of the mental patients are harmless, though many have become druggies since being kicked out of Riverview). Their existence at all makes me very angry because they could turn their lives around if they wanted, but they don't because it's easier to steal and suckle the tit of the government and charity.

There's a kid on trial for murder right now in my town because he killed one of these. The papers highlight what a kind and gentle homeless man he was and all the friends he had who will miss him at the Sallyanne shelter. It's further down in the article that you see that the kid hit him with his skateboard as the hobo was riding away on the kid's bicycle after cutting through the lock and stealing it. Hit his head when he fell off.

Maybe it wasn't one of these that broke into my car. I wasn't there, I didn't see. But that these folk are behind most of the crime in town, odds are good it was. And it makes me less and less sympathetic for those who might just be down on their luck victims of the recession or the mentally unwell.

[VanSlick]

Ya, I'm really unhappy with the homeless situation here in Victoria. There are many who choose the homeless lifestyle here because the weather is accomodating, and they get a free ride for having to do nothing. I've got nothing against people who are actually down on their luck, but it is so prevalent here that its hard to tell lifetime-homeless to down-on-luck guy.

That being said, you can usually tell from their reaction to turning them down. The lifetimers seem to get much more irrate if you don't "help" them. I had one guy, in the midst of eating, yell at me for not giving him some money for food. In the middle of a cheeseburger, mind you.

Ya, not too pleased.

[Lord Chrusher]

I think you are quite right Brad about the mentally ill being left with no where to go but the streets. Considering the amount of time and money the health and criminal justice systems have to spend dealing with the drug addled and mentally ill it would be cheaper to institutionalize them. But governments seem to enjoy false economies.

[Tapir12]

I wonder if a lot of people's perspectives suffer from "one bad apple" syndrome. Are the homeless people really that bad? Or is it just a few that make up for the rest. I honestly don't know the answer.

But there definitely are a lot of people out there who are in bad shape, but ARE will to try and to work hard. The can collectors, for example. In some cities, these groups can be amazingly organized, with set collection areas and compiling all the results together to get a bigger selling price.

The folks I'm complaining about are the druggies and the homeless who have actively chosen their way of life and through either ignorance of options or active choice have not pulled themselves out of it.

But I do have to disagree with Brad about being unwilling to make positive changes. I would venture that most are unable. Drug addition is not something that can be overcome easily. And if the streets is all you have known for your whole life, how would you know what else your life could be? What if you don't read? Sometimes I think we take our privileges for granted. That doesn't in any way justify crime, though.

Another way to look at it, from a bigger picture perspective, is that a lot of options have been taken from them. In our modern society we expect people to have a job. We expect them to earn money, own or rent their own land, participate in the modern economy. If someone doesn't want to be a part of that, they don't have a lot of choices. They can't just live here or eat that because everything is owned by someone else. If they are "bad for tourism" then they are disliked because they are hurting someone else's chances at making money, not because they have done anything wrong.

The issue of safe injection sites is really tough. I don't think I can really have an option, having never visited one. One the one hand, if it's going to happen, shouldn't it happen safely? Or the other hand, should the government be involved in such not-quite-legal activities...

For the record, I never give money to people on the streets, and I rather wish they weren't there as well.

[empath]

I think you are quite right Brad about the mentally ill being left with no where to go but the streets. Considering the amount of time and money the health and criminal justice systems have to spend dealing with the drug addled and mentally ill it would be cheaper to institutionalize them. But governments seem to enjoy false economies.

<sarcasm> Oh, NO - it genuinely IS a saving to the government, and indeed society, to not have to maintain these institutions: with the advancement of pharmaceuticals, it's possible for these poor people to live in a state of mind that approaches what we consider 'normal' without the being watched over 24/7. All that is required is that we provide these people the medications which then they can administer to themselves, and for the mere price of minor discomfort and trivial side effects like physical pain from the medication, they can become productive members of society able to find and hold jobs and as such pay for a place of residence.

After all, once these people are on their medication, all they have to do is keep taking it and not slip up, thus losing the mood-adjusting effects and entering a state of mind that might be incapable of medicating one's self, which would never happen because these people are now MAGICALLY fixed by these wonder drugs.</sarcasm>

Honestly.

I saw the flaw in this reasoning back when it happened and all the asylums were emptied out with the advent of new psychoactive pharmaceuticals...when I was a teenager. "But what if they stop taking the pills? Who's going to make them? There's no nurse or orderly around when they're out and about."

And now we have a horde of poor afflicted people who typically do no harm, but provide cover for others - the 'choosers' that Brad and other people have mentioned; the ones that have DECIDED to give up (and often look surprisingly young and healthy) and typically ARE the ones who resort to crime to support themselves when charity doesn't stretch far enough. They can hide themselves behind the benign...well, 'mental cases'¹, and as such society doesn't crack down them all due to the presence of the truly unfortunates, and these 'stainless steel rats' (without the talent) persist.

Personal examples:

-The Wife 'N I™ redeem our pop bottles and cans, as well as drop off recyclable paper and boxboard, etc., and when at the depot, we come into contact with the 'Can Cadre'. A nice, friendly bunch of people. Frequently they seem to have tics or behaviours that indicate mental problems, but whether we see them at the depot or 'in the field' collecting, they seem fine and innocuous. A few times I've offered the few dollars we get from the return to someone who looked like they needed it more, and it's never accepted; these folks seem to have too much pride (saaaay) to take outright charity.

-There was (or maybe still is; don't go over to that part of town much) a couple who sit on the median of major street and panhandle. The location is quite intelligent; it's at a stoplight of the major egress route for one of the city's larger malls (thus people who have 'done their capitalist consumer duty' and might be more succeptible to guilt).

But I'd notice that the man (and later his female companion-wife? g/f? sister?) was VERY well fed, and despite the somewhat shabby apparel (which can be cultivated by some purchases at a thrift shop) kept a quite rotund figure throughout the year. Funny, if you're having trouble making ends meet and need to beg for food money, wouldn't you start to lose weight? The 'Can Cadre' we meet all seem to be the wiry sort who have just enough muscle to carry them around and NO extra fat.

-My car got broken into once; the transmission failed and I had to leave it at the roadside. Being only about a half-mile from home I walked the distance without concern. On one side was a technical college, on the other an older suburban subdivision (built in the 60's I believe). When I got there the next day with a tow truck (brother borrowed one from his friend's machine shop), the rear drivers-side door window was smashed in. Nothing was taken because I'd left nothing apart from registration & insurance and maybe a tire pressure gauge in the car.

Due to this damage combined with the progressing transmission trouble (developed maybe six months after I got the car at a gov't surplus auction), I decided to sell the thing for scrap.


Oh, Just One More Thing™:
1. I'm trying to avoid a potentially pejorative term like 'imbecile' or the like.

[wedrinkritalin]

I got my mobile phone stolen once, i've never been more angry and in an instant I became rush limbaugh talking about the poor stealing stuff and how i'd earned that phone, crime sucks.

[Mad Madam Mimm]

Sorry to hear about your car, especially because, as you pointed out, you end up paying more than the criminal.

I'm usually a sympathetic individual, and I give frequently to registered charities, but the issue of homelessness is one where I feel "The world helps those who helps themselves" applies. I'm all for giving to a shelter/rehab clinic, but I'm not goign to directly fund a habit. People have to put in the effort themselves, I guess. It's like the medical/ethical issue of giving an alcoholic a liver transplant when you know they're going to go out and keep drinking.

Although it is sad that even charitable deeds have to go through a registered mediator, but then who can honestly trust every individual they meet? True, not all homeless people are suffering from a habit or addiction, but how do you know they're not? And some people who beg aren't even homeless, they just go out on the weekends and beg. Gah, it's a complicated world.

[Brad]

The church used to have monks called almoners that would get to know the charity cases that sought out assistance to make sure that the charitable money wasn't going towards those that would make the world a worse place for the charity they were given. Generally that meant making sure they weren't beating thier wives and children overly much or using the money to get the worse for drink rather than to a productive end (meth wasn't around then). I posed this to my brother - who, if had lived at the same time as Marx would've had to have been restrained from dry humping the man's leg - who posed the rhetorical question of, "then it's okay to decide who does and doesn't deserve charity?"

Yes!

[Cake]

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a aremission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his bSpirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.
22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are arich as pertaining to the things of this world.
24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I agive not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

[Graham]

So your take on it is...?

[Lyinginbedmon]

So your take on it is...?

Biblical, I think.

[Cake]

I try to follow that doctrine to the best I can. If I have a few bucks when passing someone in need, I'll hand them some. It's not my place to judge them. If I'm in a position to ease someone's suffering, I make an effort.