Dating and Religion

[Matt]

Religious debate.

Keep this thread on track with the topic or I will lock it.

-m

[Tim]

Alja, I disagree, but this isn't meant to be a thread debating the validity of various religions. Suffice it to say that the core tenet of Christianity is not to be a good person. If anything, the core of Christianity is that it is impossible to be a "good" person (though that brings up questions of the definition of "good," of course).

I don't want to get into a debate on that, but I think it's important to understand that even if religion was just about "being a good person"--which it isn't--then relationships between people of different religions could still cause tension over people's differing definitions of what is "good."


I don't intend to claim that it is impossible for people with different religious beliefs to have a loving and lasting relationship. I do claim that it is much more difficult.



Let's not less this turn into a discussion on the religions themselves, though. I see this heading that direction pretty fast here... Steer to port! Steer to port!

[Metcarfre]

Apologies to Alja; I didn't mean to be so emphatic.
Edit: Sarita (below) has expressed themselves much better than I.

[Sarita]

As I understand it, one of the basic and core tenets of Christianity is that there is no path to God but through Jesus Christ. He died for the sins of humanity so that we might have a direct path to God and so is our intercessor in all things with God the Father. Though other religions may promote the same virtues in followers (goodness, mercy, charity, forgiveness, etc.) without this core belief they cannot be said to be the same, because the belief that only through Jesus can we reach God is what Christianity is built from.

Extending this to relationships, it would be difficult to maintain a relationship with someone from another religion because they would be lacking that basic but essential link to God. You could love and respect the other person for their views but underlying it would always be the knowledge that you thought they were mistaken in their views, and that they thought the same of you. If it's something that one (or both) of you feel strongly about, such a conflict could not truthfully go unresolved. As a previous poster said, it would be like a giant wrecking ball in the relationship because it is a conflict that could never be truly resolved without one of the participants drastically changing their views and thus their personality...and in a relationship you should not be constantly willing your partner to change, especially if it is something that they hold strongly to and believe to be important.

[Jillers]

Interestingly enough this topic came up just as a friend of mine converted to Judaism after dating his current girlfriend for 5 months, and was ready to convert the moment he met her just so he could date and possibly one day marry her (he's the type of guy who convinces himself that whoever he's currently dating is "the one").

Like I said before, I have no problem with dating someone who has a strong belief in something (whatever religion. I understand it's an integral part to who someone is, but if I love that person, I accept their religion too, and whatever religion it is doesn't make a difference to me).

I was trying to be as middle of the road "this is what I think, and whatever you think is cool too" before, but I never really gave my own opinion as to why I feel like people shouldn't set up such strict limitations on themselves.

(I want to pre-empt this by stating that everyone's explained their own viewpoints beautifully, and I understand them, and I'm not arguing against them tying to make you change your mind - just explaining my own)

Think about all the experiences and intimate connections (not necessarily sexual) you are missing out on because you refuse to date someone who does not share your beliefs - religious or political. I think that you never know what life's going to throw at you, you can either fight against it, or go with it. Why fight? Why not let yourself be open to the infinite possibilities out there. You'll find the right one either way, but one way there's a whoooole lot more stress.

I feel this way about politics too. I'm very liberal, but I'd never say "I could never date a republican" despite the fact that a majority of them support the exact opposite of things I do, because I don't know what's out there, and it would be stupid (for me) to just completely close off an entire avenue of possible experiences.

I think that, either way, you're going to find the right person because you know what you're looking for, but what's the harm in letting go of strict guidelines and seeing what else God has put in this world for you to enjoy? I'm not saying "Man, go hog wild and completely forget about your own moral standards!" - not at all - but you never know if that agnostic you really like, and court (as Tim put it) introduces you to someone else that ends up being the one, and you'd have never met them without the agnostic.

I'll admit, the Great Schism happened for a reason, and there is that whole problem in the Middle East, but taken individually, I think people are capable of far better (and I certainly think everyone here is open-minded enough to not kill people over different beliefs, political or religious).

tl;dr - I try to be as pu (or Pooh as it were) as best I can.

[Telaril]

Just a couple of things in your post that I'd like to comment on.

For instance, certain religions are or have been strongly against interracial love and marriage.

I question whether it is/was the religion itself that was against interracial marriage, or if it was (some of) the religion's followers who were against it. There's a big difference there.

[/quote]

Look into early Mormonism. There are quite a few other religions who have or had similar taboos written into their most sacred scriptures. If you don't think early Mormonism was against interracial marriage I'm a bit confused as to how you'd define a religion being against something (as opposed to just some followers). If the leaders of a church interpret their scriptures to be for or against a thing, I'd say that religion is against it. In some cases, if the majority of the members of a certain church believe their scriptures are against something, I'd say that particular church is against it. Do you have a different view? I'm actually curious.

I can imagine changing some ideas about your faith without "straying" or "losing it."

Absolutely. I feel very differently about a lot of things than I did ten years ago. But not about the core of it. Not about the essential, boiled down concept of Christianity. And my commitment to that core concept is such that I can't see romantic love changing it.

I don't question that "new evidence" or a new perspective might lead you to change your beliefs. But if entering into a romantic relationship with someone who holds different beliefs is enough to cause you to change yours just so you can be with them, then you aren't committed to what you believe. It means you don't prioritize your beliefs above your desire for romance, and that goes against the nature of my belief, and the nature of other belief systems as well, afaict.

I want to clarify that I'm not trying make light of your decision here, or imply that it's a bad one. I just disagree that conversion on account of romantic relationship is as black and white as people seem to be suggesting it is.

I know a few people who have converted (or considered converting) for relationships. I don't think a decision like that says anything about your capacity for belief or the strength of your belie, unless the person involved says it does. I've known people who said they'd convert 'cause it didn't really matter to them, and in that case, fine... they've as much as admitted that they didn't have strong faith to begin with. But to look at someone who has made a difficult decision of faith with a lot of soul-searching and say "that decision you made devalues all faith you've had past and present" is silly.

Some people see their romantic involvement with someone of different spirituality as a "nudge" from God in and of itself. Some see it as a new beginning to their faith. There are a bunch of ways you can make a decision to convert based on something you might find silly that are actually quite profound for the person making the decision. So I think it's possible to convert based on romantic interest and still be very faithful, and have strong beliefs.

[Tim]

Telaril, the Catholic church in the Middle Ages decided that it was their "Christian duty" to purge the holy land of infidels, so off they went on their several crusades. Does Christianity actually support killing people because of their different beliefs? No. The Crusades were based on misinterpretations, many of which I would argue were intentional, on some level or another.

It can be very difficult to know when religious people are misinterpreting the foundation of their beliefs. That's the nature of what interpretation is. But I do think it's possible to say that "many (or even most) Christians believe X, but Christianity itself is actually about Y." It's a fine line.

I can't speak to Mormonism's beliefs on things like inter-racial marriages, because I am not familiar enough with that aspect Mormonism to have an informed stance that I would be comfortable supporting.



As to the second part, I think it's unlikely, in a practical sense, that I will find myself in a situation where I will become romantically involved with someone with different religious beliefs. It has to do with the social circles I move in and the qualities and personality that I am romantically attracted to. If I somehow did find myself attract to something with different religious beliefs, I would just be aware of the added potential for tension and incompatbility, which have been discussed here, and I think that would probably have a significant impact on where things ended up going.

I don't know if that really addresses things or not, but it's a bit more of a practical side to my approach, I guess.

[Bob The Magic Camel]

Another reason it can cause trouble in a relationship is the immense weight that the knowledge that when your significant other dies that is the last you will see of them. I have no end of solace for parents whose children reject Christianity, and do not know why anyone would bring that on themselves.

[Matt]

Another reason it can cause trouble in a relationship is the immense weight that the knowledge that when your significant other dies that is the last you will see of them. I have no end of solace for parents whose children reject Christianity, and do not know why anyone would bring that on themselves.

Simply offering a counterperspective: I don't consider it "having brought [something] on" myself. There's simply no point in fretting over the unknowable. If there's nothing after death, then I won't be around to be upset about it. If there is, well, neat.

-m

[TheRocket]

I hope there is lots of Haggan Daz in the after life.. that you won't gain weight from. And that I will be a thin, hott version of myself. And I will get a planet with a thousand virgins.

[Matt]

I hope there is lots of Haggan Daz in the after life.. that you won't gain weight from. And that I will be a thin, hott version of myself. And I will get a planet with a thousand virgins.

whoa. good afterlife.

-m

[Bob The Magic Camel]

Another reason it can cause trouble in a relationship is the immense weight that the knowledge that when your significant other dies that is the last you will see of them. I have no end of solace for parents whose children reject Christianity, and do not know why anyone would bring that on themselves.

Simply offering a counterperspective: I don't consider it "having brought [something] on" myself. There's simply no point in fretting over the unknowable. If there's nothing after death, then I won't be around to be upset about it. If there is, well, neat.

-m

I don't appear to be communicating well today. Want I meant to say is I don't know why someone would invest emotionally into a relationship with a person whom they believe is not going to join them in the afterlife. I know Christian parents who's children didn't become Christians, and it is pretty distressing for them. I could not see me willingly putting myself in that position. Not that I don't understand why Atheists bring the lack of anything on themselves.

[SamsonWest]

ok I know we don't want this turning to a talk about religion itself but I am wondering, where is a good place to read such arguments, could be something to keep me busy at work today

as a atheist I also would have to agree its important, I mean I have dated Christians before and everything was perfectly fine for the short term, heck didn't even come up in the relationship really. But down the line, if one was to get married it would be a mess. Especially when it comes to the raising of children or even death. I can imagine it would be troubling for a loved one that thought I was going to hell, or that didn't like that in my mind, I would never see them again after death.

[Tally]

In second Corinthians, Paul instructs believers not to be “yoked together with unbelievers.” Most people take this to refer to marriage, at least in part. And despite my personal dislike of Paul for coming across as a misogynist and a homophobe, I figure that in this instance he's offering pretty practical advice.

In fact, all those big traditional rules of the bible (meaning the ones most biblical teachers and practitioners still hold to) are pretty practical. “Thou shalt not kill” because the world will go straight to hell in a handbasket if everyone can just off the guy up the street with a yappy little dog and an “I <3 Stephen Harper” bumper sticker. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s oxen” (or television, iPhone and gorgeous new kitchen cabinets) because being jealous of everyone around you all the time simply makes you miserable.

And, following up on Paul’s statement, if you form an intimate and long-term relationship with someone whose world view diametrically opposes yours, you’re both bound to end up unhappy and arguing.

However, I think the term “unbeliever” can hold a different meaning for different people.

I’ve been in an overall stable, healthy and happy relationship with Jeremy for close to 3 years now. I grew up in the church and identify as a Christian. Jeremy did not and does not.

I wasn’t always certain this would work out for us. But the reason I was willing to give the relationship a go, and the reason I believe it’s worked, is that Jeremy and I share the same basic ideas about what constitutes upright and moral behaviour, of what are good values, of how we should live and treat ourselves and other people. And since those things are, for me, the most important aspect of my religion and belief in God, Jeremy and I are compatible.

Also, he occasionally makes deliciously extravagant breakfasts. Who wouldn’t stick around for that? Plus he's in these really entertaining videos on the internet - you guys may have seen some of them...

It’s never a bad thing to be picky about who you date, as long as you are kind and considerate in communicating this. After all, if you’re hoping for a long term relationship, you’re gambling with two people’s emotions and general well-being, so why not be cautious?

[Yukikaze]

Think about all the experiences and intimate connections (not necessarily sexual) you are missing out on because you refuse to date someone who does not share your beliefs - religious or political.

Now, I'm going to try to keep this away from what happened a couple of pages ago.

I actually have experienced firsthand what one is missing out on by refusing to date someone who does not share my beliefs. It's not much.

As many of you are aware, I am a rather hardcore right-wing Conservative Christian. Four or five years ago, I took as a girlfriend(though we never dated... you have to meet face-to-face for that) a hardcore left-wing, Liberal who by the end of two years had gone from Agnostic to hostile Antitheist. We liked similar music styles, we had similar tastes in anime, fiction, and video games, she's actually the reason I bought my first M-rated game.(Halo: Combat Evolved, for PC)

We didn't exactly have a lot in common, but at the time, I'd taken the approach of being malleable. I didn't know who I was, so instead, I could cause myself to be whatever I thought the object of my affection wanted. I was the reason we started telling each other "I love you," she was, until very recently, the only girl besides my mother who had ever said I was good-looking, she loved my sense of humor, and she said my handwriting was pretty. For reference, my handwriting is almost readable on a good day.

She eventually admitted to being a pathological liar, so I don't know exactly how much of what she said is real. It doesn't matter, I've managed to forget most of it in the past three years. At the time, however, she was perfect. I felt like the four-eyed nerd who got to date the lead cheerleader. There were cherished memories, hopes, and dreams that got crushed at the end of that two years. There was a reason I held on as long as I did.

Not that it was a good reason, just that it was a reason.

There were also hardships, strife, arguments, differences of opinion, flared tempers, open hostility, and in retrospect, I'm glad that we never met face-to-face, as I might have taken actions that I would now regret. When it comes down to it, the relationship was two solid months of bliss, followed by twenty-two months of ever-heightening hostility punctuated by isolated moments of bliss.

So yes, I know exactly what I'm missing by insisting on not dating someone of a differing religious and political viewpoint. There is quite a bit of good, but what good there is can be found, ultimately, in any relationship between friends.(I tend to have very close, loyal friends.) There is also quite a bit of bad, and that one little girl, the last person who I ever loved, is the foundation for my pitch-black sense of humor, my rather brutal manner in dealing with problems, the fact that I have been unofficially banned from one forum and officially banned from a second, and all of the misanthropic hate and vitriol towards general humanity which punctuates pages 3 and 4 of this thread. She isn't the cause for it, but had I never met her, there wouldn't be a foundation there for it.

It took me two years just to recover to where I had been before, and another two years to fortify my soul and spirit in hopes of never having to go through that again.

[spartanhelmet]

So, I'm going to throw a question into the mix...

In terms of religions, how do denominational differences work out in terms of the OP? Would you date a protestant/baptist/eastern orthodox/evangelical with the thought of "well, they're christian"?.. or is there too much difference.

If you respond yes to the first, that's cool... I'm Church of Scotland baptised, so therefore presbyterian protestant (would you have picked it). Funny, considering I have a Catholic baptised (but nontheist) father and a nontheist mother.

[JesterJ.]

Another reason it can cause trouble in a relationship is the immense weight that the knowledge that when your significant other dies that is the last you will see of them. I have no end of solace for parents whose children reject Christianity, and do not know why anyone would bring that on themselves.

Simply offering a counterperspective: I don't consider it "having brought [something] on" myself. There's simply no point in fretting over the unknowable. If there's nothing after death, then I won't be around to be upset about it. If there is, well, neat.

-m

This is exactly how I feel. Matt, you keep saying exactly what I'm going to. Keep it up, it makes my job easier.

[FlintPaper577]

Funny, now that the idea of pitched battle has been raised I find my trigger finger gettin' itchy. Must resist...

Anyway

Religious beliefs are mutable. One can drift away from religion much as one can find it, never mind exchanging one belief for another. I am not sure if this is a good question for this thread but could love be strong enough for you to change your religious beliefs.

I think if you changed your 'beliefs' for love, it would seem as you neither held real beliefs in the first place, nor would you hold any afterwards.

I'd disagree with that. One of the things I most value in the guys I like is the ability to learn from each other. I'm always wanting to learn new stuff, hear new interpretations, and argue about the Greek. A guy who could argue intelligently and compassionately enough to teach me something new... would be excellent.

Alternately, I can imagine falling in love with someone negating a specific religious belief. For instance, certain religions are or have been strongly against interracial love and marriage. I can see how someone who fell in love with someone of another race could then decide to change their faith. Same for someone who fell in love with a person of the same gender.

I've known a number of people like that, who converted from a branch of Christianity that disapproves of homosexuality to one that doesn't. I still respect their faith and beliefs, and how difficult the decision may be.

I can imagine changing some ideas about your faith without "straying" or "losing it."

Sorry to briefly regress to about a page ago, but the stupid time difference meant I couldn't answer this til now. If I was persuaded to change faiths by someone I loved, that wouldn't really be for love, that would simply be an intellectual thing, no different from being persuaded by a clergyman or a street preacher.

Also, changing some ideas about your faith is a separate concept to changing faiths wholesale. If I changed from Anglicanism to Presbyterianism, or from an Evangelical to a Liberal outlook on an issue, that's rather far removed from changing from Christianity to Islam or Buddhism or Atheism.

[FlintPaper577]

So, I'm going to throw a question into the mix...

In terms of religions, how do denominational differences work out in terms of the OP? Would you date a protestant/baptist/eastern orthodox/evangelical with the thought of "well, they're christian"?.. or is there too much difference.

If you respond yes to the first, that's cool... I'm Church of Scotland baptised, so therefore presbyterian protestant (would you have picked it). Funny, considering I have a Catholic baptised (but nontheist) father and a nontheist mother.

Oh, that sorta links to what I just said (sorry about the double post guys). Just want to say that it really depends on your own heart. I don't think I could date a Catholic, because I find way too much of their Theology frankly wrong. That's not to say that I don't think Catholics are Christian or anything - for me something like Immaculate Conception would just get in the way. But I think most Protestants are basically the same, so I wouldn't have any problems dating a Methodist or whatever.

[Yukikaze]

So, I'm going to throw a question into the mix...

In terms of religions, how do denominational differences work out in terms of the OP? Would you date a protestant/baptist/eastern orthodox/evangelical with the thought of "well, they're christian"?.. or is there too much difference.

Only deal with sects I care about is non-Trinitarianism(Members of Trinitarian sects all think I'm going to hell because I believe that God isn't schizophrenic). Any other differences that might cause problems will be screened out through personality compatibility.

[Tim]

So, I'm going to throw a question into the mix...

In terms of religions, how do denominational differences work out in terms of the OP? Would you date a protestant/baptist/eastern orthodox/evangelical with the thought of "well, they're christian"?.. or is there too much difference.

This is a repost from what I wrote in the Comments section of my original blog post:

When it comes to denominational differences, I really think it's a case-by-case thing for me. I don't think I'd have any problem dating/marrying someone from a Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, or Pentecostal church background if that was the only changing variable. The thing I would think about is where we are going to go to church as a couple, and where we are going to take our children. I come from a Protestant background (specifically Christian Reformed), and if my wife was Catholic we would have to figure out which of us was going to "change approaches," as it were. So there might be some tension there on those grounds. It wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker, but it would be something I'd want to look very closely at before committing too far.

[Bob The Magic Camel]

So, I'm going to throw a question into the mix...

In terms of religions, how do denominational differences work out in terms of the OP? Would you date a protestant/baptist/eastern orthodox/evangelical with the thought of "well, they're christian"?.. or is there too much difference.

If you respond yes to the first, that's cool... I'm Church of Scotland baptised, so therefore presbyterian protestant (would you have picked it). Funny, considering I have a Catholic baptised (but nontheist) father and a nontheist mother.

My general rule is that I wouldn't date anyone who I wouldn't feel comfortable attending church with. I'm a non-dom protestant who was brought up Anglican, and would happily worship with, and therefore date, those who take the Bible as truth. I would draw the line at any of the cults (RC, Mormon, JW, etc) as they are not, in my view Christian. I do not know enough about Eastern Orthodox to make a judgment.

[Emperor Gum]

When it comes to denominational differences, I really think it's a case-by-case thing for me. I don't think I'd have any problem dating/marrying someone from a Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, or Pentecostal church background if that was the only changing variable. The thing I would think about is where we are going to go to church as a couple, and where we are going to take our children. I come from a Protestant background (specifically Christian Reformed), and if my wife was Catholic we would have to figure out which of us was going to "change approaches," as it were. So there might be some tension there on those grounds. It wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker, but it would be something I'd want to look very closely at before committing too far.

"Change approaches"? You refuse to have a relationship with a non christian, but you are prepared to have a relationship with any type of Christian, and are willing to change your beliefs to accomodate her. I don't understand you. Are you saying that a relationship with God is important, regardless of how you manifest it?

[notomtolose]

Even within a given church with the most strictly defined doctrine, individuals will always approach faith in subtly different ways. Tim hasn't drawn an absolute line in the sand, saying, 'this far, no further!' He's only expressed that anyone outside Christianity as a whole is definitely a bridge too far away. That doesn't mean that anyone who claims Christ is fair game, it only means that anyone who does not claim Christ, is NOT fair game.

Please, permit me to echo the sentiment that the forum's attitude in discussing this matter is admirable in the context of the wider internet.

[King Kool]

Slightly off-topic, but somebody asked me if I had change for a 10 so he wouldn't have to get it all on a change card on the bus. I didn't, but I figured what the hell and I just gave him the $1.75 for the bus. He said, "God bless you. I'm not even religious, but God bless you."

I was touched, but it makes me wonder: do people still believe that you need to be religious to be virtuous?