Inception (Home Release Necro'd edition)

[octopimpostor]

I think it's funny. He will eventually know if it's a dream if he ever goes back in the kitchen. Either the top will be down or still spinning.

[Telaril]

I think it's funny. He will eventually know if it's a dream if he ever goes back in the kitchen. Either the top will be down or still spinning.

HA!

[Murakami]

I think it's funny. He will eventually know if it's a dream if he ever goes back in the kitchen. Either the top will be down or still spinning.

HA!

Welluhh, hasn't the top become useless after Saito touched it in Limbo?

On another note, it does matter, context wise, if the ending is a dream or not, but I do not think it matters for the movies message. It has been pointed out that Nolan probably knows if it's real or not, but I don't know if we'll ever really know this. And thats how it's supposed to be, so the message can arrive.

Another thing: I don't know if this has been pointed out already, but isn't Cobbs return to the plane a lot like him coming into a dream, in the middle of it all?

I personally am quite fascinated by the scene where Cobb gets stuck between the two buildings. Because it was a really exciting and surreal moment to experience watching the movie, and because it seems to point out that that moment was a dream.

[aeric90]

Regarding why you don't want people touching your totem:

Your totem is intensely person because you know how it feel, weighs, and behaves. From visual inspection we wouldn't know that Arthur's die is weighted and even knowing that information we wouldn't know specifically how it's weighted. If someone were to attempt to replicate it in a dream in order to fool you you would know that it's false, just like how Saito knew that the carpet in his hideout was fake.

You don't let someone touch it because then they potentially could use it against you.

[Telaril]

I personally am quite fascinated by the scene where Cobb gets stuck between the two buildings. Because it was a really exciting and surreal moment to experience watching the movie, and because it seems to point out that that moment was a dream.

I disagree. Everyone thinks that is so weird, but I've been in old and poorly developed cities and had just that sort of thing happen. I was a curious kid and I've squeezed through narrow alleys and gaps that seemed just as strangely placed. We thought of them as secret passages and it's a wonder none of us were ever trapped.

For someone familiar with that kind of city, that moment didn't seem surreal at all. It's MORE surreal that a bunch of random guys are just chasing him for some reason, or that Saito knows exactly where to show up. But those are more common movie contrivances, so less noticeable to most people

[iamafish]

I think people are forgetting the concept of tension, and how that is created by having him squeeze in between the buildings. sometimes things in movies should be taken at face value, even a film like inception.

The arrival of Saito is more contrived, but i think that is weak evidence for calling the entire film a dream.

[Nevrmore]

Welluhh, hasn't the top become useless after Saito touched it in Limbo?

No. Totems don't magically suddenly stop being able to accurately predict the state of reality because someone got their hands on it. aeric90 has it right; the reason you worry is that if someone is aware of your totem and knows how it behaves through personally feeling and testing it, if they were to ever put you in a shared dream then they could build it in such a way that the physics will compensate for how the totem is supposed to act in the real world. Arthur got defensive when Ariadne tried to see not because her touch would have destroyed the die's magic or whatever, he was just kind of paranoid.

[AlexanderDitto]

Welluhh, hasn't the top become useless after Saito touched it in Limbo?

No. Totems don't magically suddenly stop being able to accurately predict the state of reality because someone got their hands on it. aeric90 has it right; the reason you worry is that if someone is aware of your totem and knows how it behaves through personally feeling and testing it, if they were to ever put you in a shared dream then they could build it in such a way that the physics will compensate for how the totem is supposed to act in the real world. Arthur got defensive when Ariadne tried to see not because her touch would have destroyed the die's magic or whatever, he was just kind of paranoid.

And it's this that made me realize that the top's capabilities as a totem have nothing to do with whether or not the top falls over or spins forever; it's the feel of the top when you spin it; something that only Dom would have been familiar with, if he were the only one to have spun the top. So, in reality, the ending of the movie doesn't actually matter; Dom knows whether the world he's in is the real one or the dream one, having spun the top. The audience isn't sure, because in some dream worlds, the top keeps spinning. But Dom must know. That's the only way the top makes sense as a totem.

[epocalypse]

Welluhh, hasn't the top become useless after Saito touched it in Limbo?

No. Totems don't magically suddenly stop being able to accurately predict the state of reality because someone got their hands on it. aeric90 has it right; the reason you worry is that if someone is aware of your totem and knows how it behaves through personally feeling and testing it, if they were to ever put you in a shared dream then they could build it in such a way that the physics will compensate for how the totem is supposed to act in the real world. Arthur got defensive when Ariadne tried to see not because her touch would have destroyed the die's magic or whatever, he was just kind of paranoid.

And it's this that made me realize that the top's capabilities as a totem have nothing to do with whether or not the top falls over or spins forever; it's the feel of the top when you spin it; something that only Dom would have been familiar with, if he were the only one to have spun the top. So, in reality, the ending of the movie doesn't actually matter; Dom knows whether the world he's in is the real one or the dream one, having spun the top. The audience isn't sure, because in some dream worlds, the top keeps spinning. But Dom must know. That's the only way the top makes sense as a totem.

I don't know, fellers, I think we be taking some pretty big leaps right here.

[epocalypse]

I personally am quite fascinated by the scene where Cobb gets stuck between the two buildings. Because it was a really exciting and surreal moment to experience watching the movie, and because it seems to point out that that moment was a dream.

I disagree. Everyone thinks that is so weird, but I've been in old and poorly developed cities and had just that sort of thing happen. I was a curious kid and I've squeezed through narrow alleys and gaps that seemed just as strangely placed. We thought of them as secret passages and it's a wonder none of us were ever trapped.

For someone familiar with that kind of city, that moment didn't seem surreal at all. It's MORE surreal that a bunch of random guys are just chasing him for some reason, or that Saito knows exactly where to show up. But those are more common movie contrivances, so less noticeable to most people

I think people are forgetting the concept of tension, and how that is created by having him squeeze in between the buildings. sometimes things in movies should be taken at face value, even a film like inception.

The arrival of Saito is more contrived, but i think that is weak evidence for calling the entire film a dream.

While I admit that both of you have points, and I actual don't disagree with you, taking these things on face value in this film, especially if they're common narrative contrivances, is, in my opinion, a mistep. Note that while the walls coming to a tight point like that is a common structural anomaly of old, dense, and/or poorly planned cities, it is also one overtly reminiscent of archetypal dream imagery and situation (not to mention that a feature's real world existence does not necessarily supersede it's surreal and subconscious impact.

With the filmic features, on the other hand, we must remember that in the officially confirmed (see several recent interviews with Nolan and the cast) reading of the film as an allegory on film making, dreams are the direct analogue to fiction in general, and films in particular, so the qualities that we are prone to accept in a fantastic world of fiction are drawn directly, and, in the case of Mal's line near the end of the film, explicitly into question in defining the bounds between reality and "the dream". I actually don't think the entire film is a dream in it's own context, but perhaps there is more legitimacy to the reading of this film, and any film, as always being some sort of dream. I actually am pretty firmly on the side that, as far as the characters of the film are concerned, the end of the film is real, but there are undeniably more levels than simply what is true in the context of the plot.

[Evil Jim]

I just came back from Inception a second time & there is an important detail that people have been mistaking. The fact is... Saito never touches Dom Cobb's top. When Cobb wakes from the dream where they were testing the effectiveness of the sedative he goes to the sink to wash his face to help wake up, then tries to spin the top to be sure of where he is. He fumbles & it falls on the floor. Saito approaches in the doorway, they talk briefly & as Cobb leaves he picks up the top on the way out.

[epocalypse]

I just came back from Inception a second time & there is an important detail that people have been mistaking. The fact is... Saito never touches Dom Cobb's top. When Cobb wakes from the dream where they were testing the effectiveness of the sedative he goes to the sink to wash his face to help wake up, then tries to spin the top to be sure of where he is. He fumbles & it falls on the floor. Saito approaches in the doorway, they talk briefly & as Cobb leaves he picks up the top on the way out.

Actually Jim, While you're right that he never touches the top while awake, he does while dreaming (the very opening scene). I have thought, personally, that that fact might not matter, but then, we are shown through the fact of Cobb's Inception on Mal that accessing someone's totem in a dream can be just as corrupting as when a wake, assuming there is knowledge of how it works, which Saito claims to have.

[iamafish]

yes, but that's still irrelevant. Touching someone's totem doesn't make it useless, it just means that, if they're the architect, they can create a totem that will make you feel like you're in reality because the totem will be exactly as it should be. Totems aren't some magical thing that loose their magic as soon as someone else touches them. Saito is never an architect in the film and certain never has the chance to become one between talking to Cobb in limbo and the end of the film. Saito touching the totem is a complete red herring

re Epoc's point: Just because the film in an allegory, doesn't mean it's a dream; lots of stories are allegories. In fact one of the best things about fiction is that you can make it say whatever you want. Outside the story it's comparable to a dream, but within the story it's real.

if we remove the argument that, as an allegory, the film must be a dream, we end up with some pretty shaky evidence upon which to assert that the film is all a dream. We're really looking at a negative narrative here; a narrative that exists outside the bounds of the story, for which there is evidence within it. For such a hypothesis to stand up we're going to need a little more evidence that we have so far. The only scene in which it is really in doubt for me is the final one, for the rest of the film I dont think we have enough evidence to say that the film is all a dream, so we should revert to the default of assuming that it's reality.

[epocalypse]

indeed.

[aeric90]

Just a minor observation here I thought I'd share. Nothing ground shaking:

I have my own theory on if he's dreaming and why but it's not really important since the character arc has been completed. Ultimatley Cobb doesn't care if he's dreaming or not. Mal is gone (I just got the symbolism in her name being short for malaise and literally meaning pain in French). He's at peace with himself and he can return home. Wether it's real or dreamed it doesn't matter to him now. When he spun the top earlier in the movie it was almost paniced validation of reality. At the end he shows almost complete indiference.

[epocalypse]

Just a minor observation here I thought I'd share. Nothing ground shaking:

I have my own theory on if he's dreaming and why but it's not really important since the character arc has been completed. Ultimatley Cobb doesn't care if he's dreaming or not. Mal is gone (I just got the symbolism in her name being short for malaise and literally meaning pain in French). He's at peace with himself and he can return home. Wether it's real or dreamed it doesn't matter to him now. When he spun the top earlier in the movie it was almost paniced validation of reality. At the end he shows almost complete indiference.

Ah, but then it still matters whether or not Cobb thinks it's a dream, and why he's spinning the top at all, which character wise, is the more interesting question (my dad and I discussed it on the car ride home after the first time we saw it). If he doesn't care if he's dreaming, than in a way that could be a more negative ending, like he's resigned to the 'fact' that he may still be dreaming. If, on the other hand, he's sure he's awake, then the spinning of the top and the abandoning of it can be read as him saying that he needs no confirmation, because now he's sure he's completed his journey. I still think the most interesting, and, I think, artistically most valid reading of the ending is found on thematic and allegorical level. In the "making films" reading, Cobb takes the role of the director, and even an author avatar for Nolan, in which case the reading of the end can be read as a challenge, and comment upon the flexible interpretation of art, as though Nolan himself is saying that it is up to the audience, as individuals, to find their own resolution to the film, to find the answer that leaves them satisfied, to complete the work themselves.

[korri]

I just got back from seeing the movie and HOLY CRAP. I loved it. I need to see it again.

I still haven't decided what to think of the very last scene, part of me wants everyone to be happy, but another part of me knows that the ending was just too perfect.

But anyway, the visuals were absolutely stunning and I love Joseph Gordon-Levitt...

[epocalypse]

I think more than anything else, the ending is an emotional and outlook litmus test. Nolan gives us enough story, plot, and emotional evidence to make convincing arguments for either view, but I feel like he wants us to see the ending we want to see.
And, to, for perhaps the first time in history, to get millions of people absolutely on the edge of their seats about what a top is going to do.

Anyways, analysts have it set to win weekend 3 of it's release. $30 m is expected, which would push it's domestic to the doorstep of $200m, and all implications from internationals are pointing to it breaking $300m by the end of the weekend in world wide. If it once again out does predictions, it could see a few extra million domestic, maybe $33m. Also, at the door step of 100,000 votes at IMDb, the score is strong at 9.2

[Metcarfre]

Thought;

If we interpret the "Dreams are an allegory for moviemaking", then Cobb is the director - perhaps, specifically Nolan himself? But Cobb cannot make 'mazes' as a normal architect would be able to. He has to find his way home by making an incredibly complicated dream - a movie - that is designed to his theory about planting ideas in other people's heads.

My point is this; if the 'dreams' are allegories for moviemaking, is the multi-layered dream sequence an allegory for the movie itself we are watching, and could Cobb's problem that is being solved actually an allegory for Nolan's own writer's block!? Does that make sense?

Whoa. That would be Kaufmann-esque levels of self-referencing.

...Or am I thinking about this too much?

[Evil Jim]

I love how in the theater you can always tell which people are seeing it for the first time.

[epocalypse]

Thought;

If we interpret the "Dreams are an allegory for moviemaking", then Cobb is the director - perhaps, specifically Nolan himself? But Cobb cannot make 'mazes' as a normal architect would be able to. He has to find his way home by making an incredibly complicated dream - a movie - that is designed to his theory about planting ideas in other people's heads.

My point is this; if the 'dreams' are allegories for moviemaking, is the multi-layered dream sequence an allegory for the movie itself we are watching, and could Cobb's problem that is being solved actually an allegory for Nolan's own writer's block!? Does that make sense?

Whoa. That would be Kaufmann-esque levels of self-referencing.

...Or am I thinking about this too much?

Are you suggesting self referential meta-allegory? If so, sir, then I concur. There be layers on top of layers here.

[Evil Jim]

Mindwebs was a radio programme broadcast across American National Public Radio from the late '70s to early '80s. It featured short stories of speculative fiction read aloud & semi-dramatized by Michael Hanson. There is a particular half-hour episode originally broadcast on August 12th, 1977 (yes, soon to be 33 years ago to the day) and features elements similar to that found in Inception. It is "Carcinoma Angels" by Norman Spinrad & I have uploaded it here, to YouSendIt to share since I believe a number of you in this thread may enjoy it. You don't need an account or any personal info to download & the MP3 is only 6.5 MB. I'd like to hear what you think of it.

The upload expires on August 14th or at 500 downloads, whichever comes first. So.... "Supplies are limited, offer ends soon!"

[epocalypse]

Neat

[iamafish]

jim, that story was awesome, thanks for sharing!

[Evil Jim]

Mindwebs is my favourite ever radio programme. I have 150+ more episodes. More can be made available to interested parties.