Occupy Wallstreet

[epocalypse]

The fact of the matter is that the US does not have a true "free market" system, and that a free market system is unsustainable on a large scale because destructive competition will eventually become some kind of Corporatism (oligarchical, fascistic, totalitarian, but regardless of what you want to call it, run by corporations) and we don't have a truly regulated or social captalist model (which is what I believe we need, but besides the point). What we have is a kind of government subsidized corporate pseudo-capitalism oligarchy, which requires that the biggest private corporations be saved by public funding but then disallows the government from being a true investor by demanding it not influence the business plan of the companies it backs. In a word, what we have is stupidity.

[Dutch guy]

Also, whats this about reinstating import tariffs? I'm pretty sure they still exist. But raising them isn't going to matter. A lot of stuff from china, even with shipping, has become so cheap it's impossible to produce it cheaper locally. Even with a doubling or even tripling of import tariffs.

Especially the cost of sea freight has dropped so dramatically in the last decade (largely due to the use of standardized shipping containers) that even the massively increased import/export cost has not been able to stop prices from dropping. And with modern computer and tracking systems, prices are predicted to drop even further due to increased efficiency of the entire system.

[Wraith]

It's evil wizards.

Got it.

[theDreamer]

Oh Virtual Shackles, you get me so well.

[sdhonda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50rpJ7EQ ... ture=feedu

[arch4non]

What I'm tired of is people pointing to others who are less fortunate than I while saying I should be content with my shit sandwich because at least the bread isn't bad.

[Valliac]

Occupy Sesame Street

[Matt]

LOL.

-m

[Gordon Fearman]

So the impression I got from Wraith's first post is that the entire thing is the equivalent to a lot of people doing this.

And that's a terrible thing.

[Rikadyn]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/07/my-take-occupy-wall-street-looks-like-church-to-me/

Um...yea...o.O

[Digital Dolphin]

I'm curious to see how Occupy Vancouver will go... the plan is for it to run for 2 months from what I've heard.

[Rikadyn]

I'm curious to see how Occupy Vancouver will go... the plan is for it to run for 2 months from what I've heard.

(Queues up footage from the Stanley Cup Finals Game 7 post game party)

[2stepz]

I have a friend who is "occupying" San Francisco. I understand he want's to be part of history, but... *sigh* it hurts my head.

[Fezzul]

Occupied makes it sound like a restroom...

[Rikadyn]

Eh, wait till a week of bad weather and they'll prolly disappear...

[tak197]

Occupy Sesame Street

[Lord Chrusher]

Also, whats this about reinstating import tariffs? I'm pretty sure they still exist. But raising them isn't going to matter. A lot of stuff from china, even with shipping, has become so cheap it's impossible to produce it cheaper locally. Even with a doubling or even tripling of import tariffs.

Especially the cost of sea freight has dropped so dramatically in the last decade (largely due to the use of standardized shipping containers) that even the massively increased import/export cost has not been able to stop prices from dropping. And with modern computer and tracking systems, prices are predicted to drop even further due to increased efficiency of the entire system.

Also one of the reasons the great depression was so bad was effect of the tariff walls erected to protect domestic producers. Global trade dried up messing up any economy dependant on exports.

[Wraith]

You know what gets me? People are simultaneously talking about “the evils of the 1%” and then inducting Steve Jobs; a billionaire whom I’ve yet to meet a single person that knew him and didn’t think he was a royal asshole of man, into sainthood. And half of them probably hate Bill Gates, despite him giving the bulk of his fortune away to aid “the 99%”

[Gordon Fearman]

It's cool. I saw that movie. James Bond kills him.

[Dubious_wolf]

:Edit

I just don't see how posting photos of how poor we are is going to help when the statistics already reflect that.

Thing is, the "I am the 99%" portion of the protest is one of the stronger elements, and one of the ones I most adamantly support. It puts faces to those stats, and it tells the stories those stats don't. That's powerful, and that's much less easily dismissed.

It also ties very directly into practical solutions:

-bankers held responsible for the damage they've caused to the economy.

-comprehensive campaign finance reform, to mitigate the extent to which politicians can be bought.

-the revocation of corporate personhood, to put political voice back in the hands of the people.

-stricter regulation of financial institutions, to prevent banks from gambling on people's livelihoods.

-taxation adjusted so the the effective tax rate faced by individuals with the greatest ability to pay is not LOWER than that of the people upon the backs of whom they earn their fortunes.

There's a message there, and there are clear, practically achievable solutions inherent within.

There's just no structure to the protest, and the message is getting diluted and lost.

-m

This is what I was getting at. Matt is always so much more concise about this sort of thing.

[empath]

Well, things seem to be distilling into an actual message and agenda, and while that's GOOD, I fear the Media has already lost interest and the opportunity has been wasted.

Again, I'm with Wraith that all this could have turned out better if the organizers had spent an extra week working out some actual talking points and slogans and whatnot BEFORE getting everyone to gather...

[Dubious_wolf]

I'm not convinced, I think that the media is still desperately trying to pigeon hole the movement and so still has some interest. I'd give them another week if they are still on the current trend. If it is bolstered in the next week by more people or police incompetence or some other head lines story, they might buy themselves an extra week.

[TomBrend]

At occupy boston, which I drove past yesterday, someone had a sign that said "NOT MOVING TIL U GIVE US JOBS".

I can't even think about their approach to life without getting irritated at them.

[Drunk On Mystery]

The lack of a clear, concise message is the biggest reason I can't get behind this, at least as it exists now.

"End Poverty!" isn't an actionable item.

"End the toxic relationship between the government and Wall St!" is a step in the right direction, and has the kind of Us vs. Them thinking that people can rally behind, but again: without a clear goal, you're just going to end up with a bunch of symbolic gestures(at best) and no real change. We've had that before.

"Reinstate the Glass-Steagal act" is an actionable item, but the problem there is that the average person has no idea what the Glass-Steagal act even is, let alone what effect its repeal had on the banking industry over the last 12 years.

It's a tricky spot.

And Wraith: While I can appreciate your position and your feelings on the matter, arguing(or implying) that the sub-prime mortgage crisis could be blamed squarely on "a system so that any unqualified idiot could take out three mortgages." created by Democrats is a gross oversimplification to the topic at hand. It'd be like pointing at a single snowflake and blaming it for the entire avalanche.

[empath]

At occupy boston, which I drove past yesterday, someone had a sign that said "NOT MOVING TIL U GIVE US JOBS".

I can't even think about their approach to life without getting irritated at them.

Yeah; it's really GROSS to want the corpse of a cancer victim; I mean I wasn't exactly a fan of his, but at least let his body be given a little respect.