Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

[Kapol]

Epic Experiment seems not to work with storm. Casting the spells with Experiment is a single action during the resolution of the spell, therefore the spells are not actually cast 'before' casting the storm spell.

According to Gatherer's rulings, Epic Experiement casts them one at a time, with you choosing the details of each as you cast them. But i'm not sure if that makes any difference.

[diallobe298]

I had a question that came up in a game, one of my friends played a card with persist on it and he had Melira, Sylvok Outcast out on the table.

He was playing as the -1 was never put it on the creature. However one of the other guys and I came up with a few other possible outcomes for this and none of us know which would be correct. Could someone help with this.

1. The -1 never gets put on the creature as Melira's ability prevents it from happening.

2. The -1 still gets put on the creature as it is part of the cost it would still have to take it no matter what Melira's ability is.

3. The creature cannot return to the battle field. Melira's ability makes the persist cost impossible to pay and the creature just stays dead.

Thanks guys.

[Drecon]

Epic Experiment seems not to work with storm. Casting the spells with Experiment is a single action during the resolution of the spell, therefore the spells are not actually cast 'before' casting the storm spell.

According to Gatherer's rulings, Epic Experiement casts them one at a time, with you choosing the details of each as you cast them. But i'm not sure if that makes any difference.

I´ve been wrong about stuff like this before so you should probably get a certified judge on this. If there aren´t any on this forum you could try the wizards.com forums, there are a few really good judges on there.

[phlip]

I´ve been wrong about stuff like this before so you should probably get a certified judge on this. If there aren´t any on this forum you could try the wizards.com forums, there are a few really good judges on there.

Last I heard, SilPho, who started this thread, is a for-reals judge. I'm not a real judge, I just play one on TV.

Re Melira and Persist: Putting a -1/-1 counter on the creature as a part of Persist isn't a "cost"... the ability doesn't have a cost, as it's a triggered ability... only activated abilities and spells have costs. When the creature dies, Persist triggers, and when it resolves, it will try to put the creature onto the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter... Melira will only prevent the counter from being added, but the rest will still happen... so the creature will come back at full strength, and can die and return indefinitely until Melira is removed (or the creature is exiled or suchlike, leaving the battlefield in a way that Persist doesn't return it).

For completeness, if there is a creature with an activated ability where putting a -1/-1 counter on the creature is part of the cost (I'm sure it exists somewhere...), and you have Melira out, then you wouldn't be able to activate it at all... since Melira straight-up says that -1/-1 counters can't be placed on creatures you control, not that they can't be placed "as an effect of a spell or ability" or suchlike. But this doesn't apply for Persist.

[Drecon]

For completeness, if there is a creature with an activated ability where putting a -1/-1 counter on the creature is part of the cost (I'm sure it exists somewhere...), and you have Melira out, then you wouldn't be able to activate it at all... since Melira straight-up says that -1/-1 counters can't be placed on creatures you control, not that they can't be placed "as an effect of a spell or ability" or suchlike. But this doesn't apply for Persist.

The list:
- Barrenton Medic
- Carnifex Demon
- Cinderhaze Wretch
- Devoted Druid
- Hatchet Bully
- Scarscale Ritual
- Sinking Feeling
- Wandering Mage (a card from alliances, curiously enough)
- Wickerbough Elder

So actually more than you'd think.

[diallobe298]

Ok thank you. I will pass that on to the owner of the desk and to the people I play with.

[Lord Hosk]

when you have Hypersonic Dragon on the table You may cast sorcery cards as though they had flash. (You may cast them any time you could cast an instant.)

Planeswalkers abilities: Each planeswalker has a number of activated abilities on it. You can play one of these abilities only at the time you could play a sorcery, and only if none of that planeswalker's abilities have been played yet that turn.

If you have hypersonic dragon in play can you use a planeswalkers abilities at instant speed?

[Rootbreaker]

No, Hypersonic Dragon's ability only applies to actual sorceries, not abilities or other spells that could only be cast when a sorcery could be cast.

From the comprehensive rules:

307.5. If a spell, ability, or effect states that a player can do something only “any time he or she could cast a sorcery,” it means only that the player must have priority, it must be during the main phase of his or her turn, and the stack must be empty. The player doesn’t need to have a sorcery he or she could actually cast. Effects that would prevent that player from casting a spell or casting a sorcery don’t affect the player’s capability to perform that action (unless the action is actually casting a spell or casting a sorcery).

[tanatoes]

Hey all! I'm back after about two months without a working computer and my first post to the forum is an Ask A Judge question:

If I have a Gyre Sage out and play a Elvish Arch Druid does my sage evolve or not?

The sage starts as a 1/2 and the druid is a 2/2 so the sage should evolve I think, but the druid gives +1/+1 to the sage - in which case it would not evolve. So which ability goes on the stack first? Evolve or the Druid's pump?

(I'm thinking I get the evolve first when the Druid enters the battlefield and then the pump immediately after that but I want to be sure.)

[Kapol]

If I'm correct, Sage doesn't evolve.

So Archdruid comes into play. Evolve does trigger at this point I think. Evolves goes to resolve and checks if Sage is still weaker. Due to the pump, which is a static effect and not a trigger, the game see her as a 2/3. As such, Evolve resolves without putting the counter on the Sage.

[Lord Hosk]

Kapol would seem to be correct based on these ruleing.


If evolve triggers, the stat comparison will happen again when the ability tries to resolve. If neither stat of the new creature is greater, the ability will do nothing. If the creature that entered the battlefield leaves the battlefield before evolve tries to resolve, use its last known power and toughness to compare the stats.

If a creature enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on it, consider those counters when determining if evolve will trigger. For example, a 1/1 creature that enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it will cause the evolve ability of a 2/2 creature to trigger.

[tanatoes]

I'm glad I asked. This is far more complicated than I thought but at least now I know.

[Drecon]

Yeah, Evolve has some very unintuitive corner cases like that.

[Utilitarian]

I'm still getting a handle on Priority when playing in paper:

I have a Reaper from the Abyss on the table. My opponent has Olivia Voldaren on the board and no other creatures. It is his second main. Nothing has died this turn. I have Victim of Night in hand. My opponent plays Boros Reckoner. Do I have an oppertunity to kill the Reckoner using Victim of Night in time to allow the Reaper from the Abyss' Morbid to go off, allowing me to then kill Olivia?

[Myrph]

Yes.

The Reckoner is played during the post combat main phase, which does not end until you say it does, as per the following rule, meaning you can play your Victim of Night before the start of the end step.

500.2. A phase or step in which players receive priority ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. Simply having the stack become empty doesn't cause such a phase or step to end; all players have to pass with the stack empty. Because of this, each player gets a chance to add new things to the stack before that phase or step ends.

What essentially happens is at the start of the post combat main phase, the stack is empty, your opponent plays the Reckoner onto the stack, passes priority to you, which you pass to allow the stack to resolve and the Reckoner to enter the battlefield. The stack is now empty and if your opponent then has no other plays he passes priority back to you, at which point you play the Victim of Night, you pass priority to your opponent (in which he could counter or kill your Reaper), and if nothing goes onto the stack to prevent it resolving, your Victim of Night then kills the Reckoner. Again the stack is empty, so if you have no plays you pass priority back to your opponent. Now, if your opponent has no further plays, he will then pass priority again, giving two successive passes with the empty stack and so the main phase ends and the end phase begins, at which point the Reaper's Morbid ability will notice that a creature has died and will enter the stack to allow you to kill Olivia.

[Utilitarian]

Excellent.

[Dominic Appleguard]

I was playing Duels 2013 as Chandra, in the Planechase game that ends the demo content.

I had Hostility and a Fire Servant in play, and I cast Flame Wave on Garruk, who had three creatures out at the time. Once the spell resolved, I had 16 3/1 creatures, which seemed wrong.
If it were a real game, couldn't I say that the Flame Wave deals 4 x 2 = 8 damage to each of the four targets, for a total of 32, which is prevented to become 32 tokens?

Mind you, I still won that game, but I felt cheated out of a bonkers combo.

[Jamfalcon]

Hostility's ability only affects damage dealt to opponents, not their creatures. Though that should mean it would only give you eight creatures, so maybe I'm not the person to be answering this.

[phlip]

Yeah, Jamfalcon's right... I think we're missing something (or it's a bug in DotP)... Working from how you've described it:

Short answer: Flame Wave will deal 8 damage to each of Garruk's creatures, and you will either get four 3/1 tokens or eight 3/1 tokens, at Garruk's choice.

Long answer: The way it should work is that as Flame Wave resolves, four events are trying to happen - 4 damage to Garruk, and 4 damage to each of his creatures. The creature damage is simple enough, it gets doubled by Fire Servant, Hostility doesn't care, so each of Garruk's creatures will take 8 damage. But for the 4 damage to Garruk's face, both the "double damage" and "replace with tokens" replacement effects apply. As the "affected player", Garruk gets to choose what order the replacement effects are applied in. If he chooses to apply Fire Servant first, then the damage will be doubled to 8, and then Hostility will replace that with you getting 8 tokens... if he chooses to apply Hostility first, then it'll be replaced with getting 4 tokens, and Fire Servant will no longer apply (as damage is no longer being dealt). Presumably the latter would be Garruk's choice 99% of the time.

I'm not sure how you managed to get 16 tokens out of the deal. Did Garruk's creatures die in the exchange? Because if not, it may be bugged that Hostility prevented all of the damage from Flame Wave, and not just the to-Garruk's-face component.

[Dominic Appleguard]

Yeah, I was completely wrong. It was probably only eight tokens, and I misremembered because they weren't 1/1s.

[SilPho]

Wow, I've not been here for a lot longer than I thought. Seems moving the thread to a new forum breaks the e-mail subscription I had set up. Sorry about that.

I'll have a read through the bits I've missed in case anything has slipped through the cracks.

[SilPho]

Seems this one wasn't answered, so here it is again:

2 questions about consuming aberration.

1. does its ability trigger even if a spell is countered. because the wording says when you 'cast' a spell. to me that suggests the ability triggers once you have a spell on the stack.

2. and leading on from that will it combo with balustrade spy i.e. if i play the spy with the aberration already out will they have to mill until land twice?

1) Yes. The trigger from the Consuming Aberration would be on the stack before your opponent even casts his counter. The trigger is completely independent from what triggered it.

2) Yes. You mill them once for the Aberration's trigger before the Balustrade Spy enters the battlefield and then you will mill them again from the Spy's triggered ability.

[phlip]

SilPho: One of mine that wasn't entirely settled... If something has you cast multiple spells at once (say, Epic Experiment), do all the spells count as being cast simultaneously (like something that destroys a bunch of creatures, or makes a bunch of tokens, it all happens at the same time) or one at a time in sequence (the order they go onto the stack)? For the purposes of Storm...

Say the storm count is 0 and I cast Epic Experiment, flip over a Storm spell and some other spell. I cast the other spell first, and then the Storm spell second (such that the Storm spell will resolve first). When Storm triggers, will I get one copy or two?

[Lord Hosk]

question I actually asked a judge one time.

(if you could post a picture of your face when you read this I would appreciate it for comparison)





If I havent played a land yet this turn, can I play a basic land during my precombat main?

[SilPho]

SilPho: One of mine that wasn't entirely settled... If something has you cast multiple spells at once (say, Epic Experiment), do all the spells count as being cast simultaneously (like something that destroys a bunch of creatures, or makes a bunch of tokens, it all happens at the same time) or one at a time in sequence (the order they go onto the stack)? For the purposes of Storm...

Say the storm count is 0 and I cast Epic Experiment, flip over a Storm spell and some other spell. I cast the other spell first, and then the Storm spell second (such that the Storm spell will resolve first). When Storm triggers, will I get one copy or two?

Cards such as Epic Experiment or Brilliant Ultimatum allow you to cast the cards in any order. (Brilliant Ultimatum states this in the Gatherer rules).

Since you are definitely casting the cards (despite doing so during the resolution of another spell) Storm will trigger as one would expect. In your example, if you cast a Storm card second, then it will generate two copies, one from the Experiment and one for the first revealed card. (A reminder to anyone reading this that Storm doesn't count itself).

And you were right about the Pyromancer Ascension stuff too.

question I actually asked a judge one time.

(if you could post a picture of your face when you read this I would appreciate it for comparison)


If I havent played a land yet this turn, can I play a basic land during my precombat main?

Too early in the morning to come up with a witty reply to that. My face pretty much looked like this: