Tropes vs Women Ep.2

[Matt]

(Anita Sarkeesian is at my school right now!)

-m

[Metcarfre]

(Matt right now)

[Matt]

Not quite, but I did get to stand about ten feet away and pretend like I was being all cool.

-m

[aeric90]

Wait... she's a bigger internet celebrity than Matt? Clearly we need to fix this.

[Kag]

I am judging purely on the snarky presentation and the one-sided attitude.

So if she made the same arguments with a different attitude, you would agree with her?

[nicholasmc1]

So I mentioned this to my roommate, who immediatly started laughing at her for X reasons (he lives on 4chan and can't think for himself). I personally haven't gotten around to watching her work but I'm sad to see the blind ignorance of the internet (personified in my roommate here) will poke fun at it because making fun of femisits is the current in thing. I myself study and make video games and am painfully aware of how bad the representation of women is, I can't defend it the industry, it is still predominatly full of men so the products they make should say something.
So the point I want to raise, we're here discussing and aruging over how bad or good this video is, why don't we take from it what we are meant to, and realise that we don't critically deal with representation in games enough, and we need to be more critical of it in the future if anythings going to change.

[Metcarfre]

Not quite, but I did get to stand about ten feet away and pretend like I was being all cool.

-m

I just meant getting to be that close to a girl.

OH BURN

[AdmiralMemo]

I'm just betting that if anyone is just tuning into this thread and reads a couple of pages, they'll be like:

[empath]

I'm saving that .gif for future use...

[Pikachaos]

Poor kitty. D:

I feel like a big problem is that a lot of guys don't really realize a lot of the problems women face with the patriarchy. I think they assume it's just bad female characters in media and not much else. I don't think a lot of people realize JUST HOW FUCKED UP this stuff can get. [ie: Rape Culture]
So when they think of Women having farther to go to equality than men, they are thinking of a smaller gap, and therefor less reason for us need more help than them.

[Pikachaos]

I had a discussion about something recently actually. The fact that whenever there is a minority or a women in a story [video game or otherwise] they always are FORCED in. It feels like white men are the ramen noodles, and minorities and women and the peas that we force into it to make it seem healthier. When there is actually a good non white-male character, the character is always making a stand about being a good character. Or even worse than that, they package all the minorities into one character [having then a half African-American, half Latina, Jewish female], and then either ignoring it completely or making their WHOLE character about them being that.
The female [not including minority traits] is always a plot device, or a role model to women everywhere, and really nowhere in between.
That in between is very rare, and people really like to point out those rare instances. But really, if it's 5% of games that do anything other than these awful tropes, that doesn't really mean the problem is solved.

[Metcarfre]

And let's be clear; this problem isn't restricted to video games alone (though I'd hazard a guess it's a bit more of a problem there). There's a reason the Bechdel test can still be applied to movies and TV shows.

[Matt]

And it still routinely fails.

-m

[My pseudonym is Ix]

Just gonna leave this here: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-gamer-com ... -bad-name/

[MattAn]

Just gonna leave this here: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-gamer-com ... -bad-name/

Congratulations, you've proven something many people already knew! Western gaming has no original ideas. It's the exact same design of a male character (well, aside from Snake Hayter, though that series was kind of designed for the Western audience in mind). Seriously, blame the Western gaming industry. It's why a growing number of people are ditching bland Western gaming and returning to Japanese (and unique indie) content. Sure, JRPGs have "stereotypes", but they're absolutely nowhere near as fucking dull as the West.
Example; Japanese (Hideki Kamiya's) Devil May Cry Dante was a fleshed-out character with very detailed back-story and character traits. The Western reboot Dante? Literally like every other Western male character. It never had anything to do with his hair being changed and everything to do with his actual character traits.

MattAn, it could be that I'm misreading your posts. However, a lot of your posts seem to be focused on discouraging people thinking of men as a homogenous group, while describing women as a homogenous group yourself. I'm sure that's not how you're meant to be coming across, but perhaps that provides some insight; no doubt you're not intending to speak for all women when you make comments like "women themselves encourage their own sexism", and yet it can still easily read that way. Others who talk about men are probably also not referring to men as a homogenous group.

I'm very sorry to disappoint your assumptions, but yes, you did indeed misread my posts. I'm saying it's horrendously one-sided (on BOTH sides, shithead MRAs and intense Feminists. Both sides are being nasty and hostile to each other and entire genders. Everyone is taking things way too fucking seriously.. No solution is ever going to be reached while it keeps going the way it is. Ever.

To the person who asked if I would agree with Anita's points from her video/transcript if the snark was dropped? No. It's funny how words don't change even when they're written instead of spoken. When I read through and commented on each paragraph earlier in the thread, I made it quite clear that I agreed with certain points and knew this was already the case, but whenever I did agree, there was a sandwich of hyperbole and blatant accusations in between. You don't fight hatred with hatred, or using the exact same ammunition. It's incredibly childish.

Men and women (on whichever "side" they may be on) are never going to stop arguing while men and women both perpetuate their own stereotype. Plenty of people don't use the internet, for a myriad of reasons, they won't even know (or maybe even give a damn) who Anita Sarkeesian is. Her fame/notoriety comes purely from the internet. Both genders are equally to blame. To even imply that all women are innocent is insane. Every single human being is different and will believe whatever they want to believe. I don't give a single box of fucks what society thinks or wants me to think. I don't blindly follow "social norms". To do such a thing means you have no common sense and can't think for yourself. I have my own brain, I can make my own damn mind up.

Let me make this very clear.
I. Know. That. Women. Are. Treated. Poorly.
I. Already. Hate. That. It. Exists.
I am not the entire human race, and therefore can not even begin to pretend to make people use common sense and social decency. Religion has a lot of its own issues, women are poorly treated as part of religion, for fucks sake! There's some absolutely horrid "teachings" in religious texts like the Bible, especially regarding women.. Women are still religious.

To be even clearer, I don't hate any entire gender, race, belief, etc. If I "hate" someone? It's because they're an awful person, regardless of human genetics.

I am a firm believer in "If enough people stop throwing money at it, hopefully things will change". Granted, that is an extreme thing to expect of society, but there's a reason so many people reject society and think everyone's a fucking idiot. Because everyone's just shouting over each other.

Actually, here's another reason (extremely personal family issues) for why I think both genders need to fucking stop. My older brother got married in early 2009, they're both in the Royal Australian Navy. Just prior to Christmas 2011.. It was discovered she was cheating on him (like.. the week before Christmas). The dude's fiancée (you heard correctly) managed to get in contact with my brother somehow (strange car at their house, etc..) and everything just imploded. My brother never deserved anything remotely like that to happen to him. The sheer notion that women are completely innocent and it's this one-sided war against men being dicks.. That doesn't sound at all fair. Or am I to assume that women are actually innocent and allowed to do (and get away with) literally everything and anything they want, while men are the scapegoat? Am I mistaken? This is precisely why I don't align myself with either "Men's Rights" or "Feminism". I would much prefer align myself with "Hey everyone! If you could all stop being fucking arseholes, that'd be real peachy!" Until that happens? Society can go fuck itself, as far as I'm concerned. There is no universally awful gender, only awful people and people taking advantage of it.

[Matt]

The sheer notion that women are completely innocent and it's this one-sided war against men being dicks.. That doesn't sound at all fair. Or am I to assume that women are actually innocent and allowed to do (and get away with) literally everything and anything they want, while men are the scapegoat? Am I mistaken? This is precisely why I don't align myself with either "Men's Rights" or "Feminism". I would much prefer align myself with "Hey everyone! If you could all stop being fucking arseholes, that'd be real peachy!" Until that happens? Society can go fuck itself, as far as I'm concerned. There is no universally awful gender, only awful people and people taking advantage of it.

For the umpteen hojillionth time, no one here is making that argument, so maybe it's time to engage the discussion that's actually happening, instead of the one you're imagining. That, or take your own advice and depart the thread for good.

-m

[Dutch guy]

MattAn, it really sounds like your problem is not with feminism or its actual arguments but with some particular women and how they have bent and distorted those arguments for their own good. Thats not a problem with feminism or basic human rights, its having a problem with some women behaving like bitches.

[empath]

I myself prefer to use the term 'asshole' for 'men being dicks'/'women being bitches' - it's asexual.

But yeah, it's just a little frown-inducing to see someone lambaste an entire group for the strident behaviour of a few extremists...especially when what they're complaining said extremists are doing is lambasting an entire group for the actions of a few extremists...

I think that 'subset' comic is really sounding more and more like a rallying call to reform society; take the extremists on both side of an issue and give them a special place to debate and argue...leaving the rest of us to engage in reasonable discourse and discussion and (heaven forbid) reach an amicable compromise.

/pipe-dream

[Matt]

So hey, during the civil rights era, do we actually think that the black panthers and the KKK were somehow equivalent?

When we're talking about tearing up foundational social power structures, are we really going to pretend that those people adamantly and furiously (and yes, sometimes violently) rejecting an oppressive and unjust status quo are just as bad as the groups adamantly and furiously and violently reinforcing and perpetuating the subjugation and marginalization of those people? I'm afraid that to do so betrays a severe lack of understanding of cultural context.

-m

[Matt]

That is, we are meant to cheer for Django in Django unchained, but if it were a film about a white man murdering slaves it would be abhorrent and sickening to watch.

That truth does not not represent an unjust double standard.

-m

[Pikachaos]

I liked this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... R9UMgOFeLw

Really explains why it's not equal.

And Mattan, I really don't think anyone here is thinking what you are thinking we think. D: I know how it feels to have someone say "All of this type of person should stop doing this" and being like "I don't do that!"
With all of this discussion, we are saying what has to be changed, not saying all men are doing these things or all men want to kill women or anything. As well as women CAN be sexist towards other women, because they've learned sexism just as well as men have and don't understand how stupid it is to hate YOUR OWN GENDER. But in the past, even some African Americans have learned to hate African Americans, because they picked it up from the culture. [same with many homosexuals]
This brings me to the "everything is men's fault" category, in which I explain how something can be a gender's fault without it being your fault. Basically, that's why we use the term "Patriarchy" so much. Men were in charge for a VERY long time. In charge of saying what was right and wrong, saying what is normal, and having everything targeted towards them. "The Patriarchy" is not any individual men, and it's not any man, it is just a representation of the gender that has control. This control and mindset is instilled in every boy and girl, and some people grow past it and some people don't. And because of the patriarchy, everything sexism related is caused by the patriarchy, because it created all of it. _Because it is in charge_ [Remember I am still not talking about any individual man]

In the video shown above it mentions that male characters are ideals and female are objectification. This is because it is targeted at men, and therefore takes everything into account of what a man would want. NOW, since it's targeted at men, if men don't like the unrealistic idea, that is the fault of someone thinking you wanted that. If the women don't like being objectified, well fuck, nobody cares, because it's not FOR them.

Basically, it is not the fault of MEN, but THE PATRIARCHY causing these beliefs to be in both our men and women.

Okay, I really hoped I explained that right. D: Sorry if I haven't.

[Pikachaos]

Relevant gifset:
http://a-most-peculiar-mademoiselle.tum ... er-boy-124

A women is telling Martha she can't be a doctor, she is saying this because of what she learned growing up in the Patriarchy.

This is not so that we can blame men for everything, this is just so we understand the reasons why people think the way they do. We are not saying men are the enemy, we are just saying we are the victim. There can be a victim without a person to blame.

[tamaness]

Basically, it is not the fault of MEN, but THE PATRIARCHY causing these beliefs to be in both our men and women.

Just piping up to define and clarify:

The patriarchy is the ongoing enforced cultural superiority of men over everyone else, and it has far-reaching consequences of which we'll still see residual effects for centuries if not millennia to come.

Men being paid more than women for the same work is a function of multiple levels of this kind of societal indoctrination. Women and men are by law afforded the same pay scales, but part of nearly every hiring procedure is a negotiation of wages. A man negotiating for higher wages is acceptable because assertiveness is a desirable trait in a male employee (because of thousands of years of cultural stigmatization and indoctrination; from here on out, take this as read), whereas the same negotiation tactic can actively prevent a woman getting the same job because she is seen as being at best catty, and at worst insubordinate and hard to work with.

Men are portrayed in games media as ideals and as sex symbols because men (not all men, but enough that it matters) fantasize about being these things; competence, strength, and perseverance are not at all bad things to strive towards, but these things are only there for the male characters.

Women in games media are portrayed as being sex objects, and as being dependent and frail (either emotionally or physically), because men as a group desire these traits in women. It's not you that's demanding this, as an individual, but it is an ongoing societal trend.

While I can point to contemporary counterexamples of these trends all day long, they account for far less of the media that we as a society consume than the whole, and the ones that do buck the trends tend to be pretty niche properties, either because of lack of interest or lack of marketing support.

[Pikachaos]

Basically, it is not the fault of MEN, but THE PATRIARCHY causing these beliefs to be in both our men and women.

Just piping up to define and clarify:

The patriarchy is the ongoing enforced cultural superiority of men over everyone else, and it has far-reaching consequences of which we'll still see residual effects for centuries if not millennia to come.

Men being paid more than women for the same work is a function of multiple levels of this kind of societal indoctrination. Women and men are by law afforded the same pay scales, but part of nearly every hiring procedure is a negotiation of wages. A man negotiating for higher wages is acceptable because assertiveness is a desirable trait in a male employee (because of thousands of years of cultural stigmatization and indoctrination; from here on out, take this as read), whereas the same negotiation tactic can actively prevent a woman getting the same job because she is seen as being at best catty, and at worst insubordinate and hard to work with.

Men are portrayed in games media as ideals and as sex symbols because men (not all men, but enough that it matters) fantasize about being these things; competence, strength, and perseverance are not at all bad things to strive towards, but these things are only there for the male characters.

Women in games media are portrayed as being sex objects, and as being dependent and frail (either emotionally or physically), because men as a group desire these traits in women. It's not you that's demanding this, as an individual, but it is an ongoing societal trend.

While I can point to contemporary counterexamples of these trends all day long, they account for far less of the media that we as a society consume than the whole, and the ones that do buck the trends tend to be pretty niche properties, either because of lack of interest or lack of marketing support.

Thank you, that is precisely what I meant. A+ Elaboration. :3

[MattAn]

Basically, it is not the fault of MEN, but THE PATRIARCHY causing these beliefs to be in both our men and women.

It's not you that's demanding this, as an individual, but it is an ongoing societal trend.

Okay, maybe I wasn't as clear in my last post.

I already know this. My entire point is I have piles of fucks that I just can't bring myself to give about what society thinks. Society and humanity is fucking awful. Society and humanity will never change because society and humanity will always be awful. I've given plenty of examples of why I'm so against this whole shit-flinging contest. I treat every single woman with respect, exact same amount of respect I give men. Unless they, as a person, do not deserve my respect because of their attitude. Nothing at all to do with their gender, nationality, sexual orientation, race. None of that matters.

Society did not force women to like the "bad boy" type. They make that decision themselves. That whole "nice guys finish last" stereotype/trope? Yeah, that still exists. That is what society is forcing. My entire point is that society as a whole needs to take a whole cup full of cyanide pills and throw itself into a pit of fire. The fire is also constantly exploding. But will this ever happen? Will my glorious Death of Society dream happen? No, it fucking won't. Because society won't let it happen. The snark/attitude in Anita's presentation really does come across as nasty and bitter. You don't fight bitterness and hatred with bitterness and hatred.

While we're all sharing videos; I've really enjoyed the Gaming Anarchist Collective videos. Critical against dick moves within the games industry. Their most prominent face/mouthpiece, "SickBoy" (who is delightfully British), like I was, originally supportive (as he states in this video) of Anita's "mission". Sadly, it's more "Rational Inconsistency". It solves nothing. What was hopefully going to be a respectful discussion.. Is really just an extreme soapbox, with the nasty over-exaggerated claims, with zero actual context from the original creators. I've said repeatedly how much I despise the term "gamer girl". To me, if you play ANY video game, you are a gamer (I don't even like that term. You just play games.)
The over-exaggerated "gamur gurlz" groups like Team Unicorn, Frag Dolls, or the "we're so sexy, guys! <3" cosplay organisations like.. I think it's.. LT3? Anyway, they specifically pander to men (and girls who like girls, to be fair!), only making things worse rather than better. They don't care, because it's like they just want that attention. Any attention. It's only doing more harm than good.

So.. When hardcore feminists claim that there's an issue.. It's hard to relate when.. People are perfectly fine with it and don't care for the "feminist cause". Again, to reiterate, I'm on nobody's side. I'm looking at all this neutrally. And everything is fucked.

EDIT: Here's an example of "LT3" Link To Photo
Sure, this raises the "sexy vs. sexualisation" issue again.. But the headset cable biting? Really? Hell, Jessica Nigri is known for her "Here's my body! IT'S HAWT, RIGHT GUYS?" She's not harming anyone at all. She chooses to do it herself. Does that mean literally every other female gamer should too? NO. It does not. Nobody is forcing anything. Anyone who is is a pathetic excuse for a human being and should be ignored completely.
Or do I need to mention how many times I've seen a photo Ms. Nigri posts on Facebook to fans of her page, how many times I've thrown a comment in saying how absolutely sick and disgusting certain people are, and how many crude/"omgboobs" comments are made to her? And she doesn't care? It's entirely subjective. It really does sound a lot like women are telling other women to stop showing themselves off and being cool with the comments they get.
I totally get that there's also a culture that "expects women to dress a certain way and they're 'asking for it' if they dress 'slutty'". I know this exists. It's bullshit. But if women are objectifying themselves, saying "omg how hot am I, look at my booooobs!"... Are they doing anything wrong, or are they actually comfortable with their own body enough to do whatever they want and not be judged for it?