Penny Arcade and 'The Mike Problem'

[empath]

Without chiming in too much at this point (although remembering this HAS put me in a much more charitable mood toward Mike) I would like to walk back one thing I said.

Indeed, Ocean Marketing isn't the ONLY example you list above that "proves that while Mike is a dick, there are far, far GREATER ones out there."

I'd put Ellison and Krahulik on a level. There's a reason I included that one in 'being a dick to people we dislike'. Ellison is very much a total dickhead. I understood this.

OK, this? This was stupid. VERY stupid, and wrong. Mike is way above Harlan Ellison. Y'know why? Because Mike never groped a woman on stage against her will, the way Harlan Ellison did. Yes, I'm prepared, pretty firmly, to put Mike as better.

I'd forgotten about that, and I apologize. Yeah. Mike? Better person than Harlan Ellison.

It's a low bar to clear, but Mike clears it quite handily.

*gulps regretfully* And you know what? I am going to give you props for this statement (honest, I am - I SWEAR), but I also respected your equating Harlan to Mike.

...because Mr. K may yet grow and age into another version of Harlan, the self-proclaimed "possibly most contentious person on Earth", Ellison.

Harlan's 79 (and pulled that shit when he was 75 and been married to his current wife for twenty-one years. What. The. ACTUAL. Fuck? O_o ) and Mike's only 35. I wasn't gonna be born for another three years when Harlan was 35, but I've been keeping an eye on him for maybe the last thirty (ever since the buzz about that fist-up at the Nebulas in the 80's - it really grabbed my teen attention that "wow, some adults I respect are NOT all dry, clinical, always-perfect behaviour exemplars, even during events of some prominence") and he's...well I can't really say he's changed, but I think he's starting to 'mellow' a little - he still kicks up a fuss, but the energy behind his feuds is more suiting his stage in life (I'm sure he still thinks about "I'm gonna kick that idiot critic's ass for panning my whole career" but then his back quickly dissuades of the idea, and instead he pulls out one of his many poison pens).

Now, is M.K. going to evolve into another "mail a dead gopher" crackpot? It's possible - I don't know any of us that are prescient, and the future still holds many surprises.

...but I'm betting not. Here's why:

The world culture around Mike today is different from that that surrounded Harlan when he was in his 30's. I feel that Ellison is 'past the point of change', so the culture around him now isn't going to have influence on him as it does on a man who's still less than a 'generation' out of his teens.

I feel the world today and the CHANGE that the culture IS undergoing will have an improving effect on Krahulik...but it's not going to happen overnight.

It's going to be gradual, and subtle, and yes - there WILL be more 'gaffes' and brou-ha-has. Something that emerges from the interpersonal interaction of MILLIONS of people has a LOT of inertia behind it, and change in it is going to be slow, potentially discouragingly so.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you goals and I HOLD THEM DEAR AS WELL. But I'm more than half Ellison's age, and I've seen the results of MY twenty-plus years of activism.

I guess what I'm trying to say now boils down to two points:

1. Effecting change is not something that happens overnight - even with the influence of millions of people on one person,

and MORE IMPORTANTLY

2. DO NOT GIVE UP BECAUSE #1 IS A FACT.


Mike *is* changing, but you can't expect to take someone who hereto had been completely uninformed of the issues surrounding your cause and expect him jump right into the rank and file right off the bat (and also considering what I'm going to get into below).

I made effort for causes I believe in, and after a couple of decades...the world is almost the same as it was before I started. Women are NOT treated exactly the same as men, homosexual couples still do NOT have all the same benefits as heterosexual couples. Black people STILL get treated differently than whites. America STILL doesn't care for its citizenry as well as other 'less democratic' nations.

But it IS better than when I started.

Cultural stigma toward minorities will probably STILL be an issue for all of us on the day we die...and likely when our great-great-great grandchildren die, too. Don't delude yourself that you can make the problem vanish within even a long lifetime of tireless struggle...

...but don't despair and give up the cause because of that. YOU STILL HAVE AN IMPACT. You still make a difference...it's just a small, yet still measurable difference. Temper your passion with realism, and take heart in the change that you do make.

Because as I said, a culture as large and populated as what we're dealing with has a massive inertia against change.

...but inertia works both ways; resisting accelerating change (making it move from a given stance on an issue), but also resisting DEcelerating change (trying to STOP it from moving from a given stance on that issue). And all our tiny little pushes 'have begun the ball to roll'.


Now the last point I'd like to bring up (yep, there actually IS a light at the end of the tunnel - I swear!) is regarding Mike's temperament.

He's a goat.

By this I mean he's not someone you TELL to do something; the more you try to FORCE or cajole him into doing something, the more resistance you're going to experience.

The old saw "you get more flies with honey than vinegar" kind of applies here.

Because I've watched his responses over the years and they largely match mine to the same sort of stimuli.

If you ASK me to do something, I'll take this under consideration and, if it's not to my obviously detriment, likely acquiesce and do as you ask.

If you start to pepper your request with words like "SHOULD" and I get the implication that your 'suggestion' is the only correct action to take on an issue, I'm gonna narrow my eyes and start putting the whole thing through some critical analysis. And my furry goat butt is gonna stay right where it is until I'm finished thinking things over.

If you essentially DEMAND that I do this or that; that I "MUST" act as you suggest, congratulations you've just wasted your time and effort. Even if the action you propose is clearly to my benefit and in my best interests, you're going to get a LOT of resistance from me when I actually finish evaluating things and take your specified option. And if the situation neither benefits nor harms me directly? Don't expect me to do ANYTHING to help you - indeed, depending on how insistent you are, you might provoke me to take action AGAINST your goals.

...and thus far, Mike behaves the same way.

So try to remember that; and try to keep it in mind when he lashes out in a blatantly counter-productive manner...it's entirely possible that some less level-headed person went and undid all your reasonable and calmly-considered efforts with a profanity-laden demand or sarcastic, condescending belittlement or - heaven forbid - explicit threat of harm or death if he didn't acquiesce.

But don't stop being reasonable; don't stop having a positive influence.

The road ahead of you is long, and almost completely unchanging, and it's GOING to get discouraging...

...but that's no reason to not journey down it.

[King Kool]

He's talked about his depression before. If he's not talking to a therapist already (and not bringing this up to them), I'd be surprised.

EDIT: (response to Trisha's comment. I really should stop thinking I can catch these before someone comments...)

[Trisha Lynn]

OK one more...

http://www.geekingoutabout.com/2013/09/05/trishas-take-the-next-step-in-fixing-the-mike-krahulik-problem-at-penny-arcade/

Gyah, I didn't realize you'd posted my link upstream. Thanks, Hosk.

[Trisha Lynn]

He's talked about his depression before. If he's not talking to a therapist already (and not bringing this up to them), I'd be surprised.

EDIT: (response to Trisha's comment. I really should stop thinking I can catch these before someone comments...)

Considering that it was only this year after the trans- issue that he ever first admitted that there was a problem in how he reacts to people being angry at him, I can only suspect that he hasn't brought this up with the doctor prescribing his meds.

Jerry's a little different. I can't remember if this was during the same season 1 episode where they talked about their medication and mental health issues, but I remember that Jerry outright expressed fear that his son would or might have the same mental health issues down the road. So at least Jerry has admitted publicly that he's very conscious about how he speaks about his feelings to his kids, at least.

In preparation for my article, I also saw this media-only Q & A where three different journos (I say "journos" because this was at PAX Australia) attempt to nail them down regarding the trans-issue, and Jerry gave a perfect answer to people who don't want to attend PAX anymore: You are free to do what's right for your conscience, but if you choose not to attend anymore, you are removing your valuable input and insight into the ongoing conversation.

[Woland]

I just deleted all Penny Arcade-related material from my bookmarks. I'm not giving them any more clicks.

Unfortunately this includes Checkpoint. I'm really sad about that. I really liked Checkpoint.

Does that mean you will be boycotting Desert Bus and Child's Play? They are Penny Arcade related.

I haven't decided. I have never had any spare money around Desert Bus, anyway, so it's not like I am going to stop doing something I was doing. But I might not follow Desert Bus anymore. I just don't know.
If the prestige of Child's Play directs more money and attention to Mike, then I have bad feelings about supporting it. I know it's a good cause. I am trying to make a measured response.

[Elomin Sha]

Depending on your convictions you'd have to give up LRR and the forum completely because they are paid by PA.

[Deedles]

I had originally been planning on making a long(Which it turned out to be once I was done ...) and well thought-out post to add to this discussion, but after reading all 7 pages in one swoop I find myself quite mentally drained, because conflict(even if not aggressive, but simply highly emotional) really takes it out of me.

My two cents that I want to add now though, which might not be long(I'm a liar, this turned out to be very long because the words just kept coming despite the fact thatI I'm ready to collapse now. Hope some of this is coherent. Good night peeplez.), but is something I've pondered about, is that Mike is, based on the examples of his behaviour, getting better. His apology seemed sincere to me because he was really trying to explain everything, from his stance on the original Dickwolf comic, to the cancellation of the Dickwolf shirts. I saw him explaining that he still finds the original comic funny to be a sign of him being genuine in response, rather than that somehow making his answer insincere. He was clearly being honest about his thoughts and feelings and was most likely trying to explain as much as possible about the behind-the-scenes thoughts and feelings so that people couldn't speculate too much and blow up another issue over ambiguities in his apology. Things had already blown up because of his short, unelaborated and unexplained answer to Khoo's question at the panel, so he was most likely trying to fix that and avoid a rerun of it.

I can understand people not trusting Mike, but I like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a perfect person and I lose my patience and sometimes just can't be arsed to deal with certain people and I don't think any less of any person who feels that way towards Mike. Sadly, even though I would like to, I'll most likely never go to PAX anyway. Why? I live in Sweden and sadly don't have the money to fly to the USA or Australia to attend any PAX. Still, I'd like to think that anyone who wishes to bring positive change will do more of such by being a presence at PAX. Not to mention trying to be a positive example to Mike. Imagine this, a culture that you did not understand because you knew nothing about it suddenly contact you one day because something you said was hurtful to them, and while some of the things they say are reasonable you're also bombarded in hate messages? I can't remember who it was, but an artist I follow on DeviantArt once wrote in the description of the submission (I'm para-phrasing, as I can't remember word for word.) "When you log on in the day and see that you've gotten 100 comments on a drawing, where of 99 tell you how awesome it is, it's still going to be that 1 comment telling you that you're horrible and should just stop drawing that will stick with you.". Negative things have a way of sticking with us, the more powerful the harder it sticks, and Mike seems like a person where negative things stick with him easily, which I can guess is a remnant of being bullied. At least that's the reason for me.

Mike says stupid shit, I think we can all agree on that by this point, but I'll firmly stand by the point that plugging my ears and humming real loud, pretending that if I ignore him he'll go away, is not going to happen. It'll only leave him surrounded by similarly ignorant people and the people who get so angry at him that they send him death threats and all other manner of insults, which simply reflects badly on the groups/cultures that he doesn't understand and most likely only serves to make his views even more ignorant and twisted. You can't educate people by shutting them out, you have to let them in to make them understand, even if that means you approaching them first.

[My pseudonym is Ix]

I think that if this was an isolated incident people would be more willing to just say it was a dick move and move on, but the fact that Penny Arcade court controversy so regularly is, I think, just making people tired of it. Not saying that opinion's right or wrong, but I do rather see where they were coming from

[Wraith]

Well, since it was suggested that another thread be made for it...

See, I admit, I'm torn. I fucking love Penny Arcade. I love PAX. I love Pinny Arcade. I think the Penny Arcade Report is great, although I wouldn't say I love it. I think Jerry's pretty fucking swell, and his writing it better. I think Mike's art is amazing.

But then there's Mike. The twitter 'cis' blowup. Fucking Dickwolves. Over and fucking over.

I admit, I've probably stuck with them longer than I should have, and I'm having a hard time not thinking this basic sentiment is right: Quit Fucking Going to PAX Already.

Thoughts, all?

Biggest over-reaction ever. Here's the thing: the type of people who typically use the word "cis" are the type of people who...well, let me put it this way: the woman who wrote the article you linked to? Is the same woman who wrote this:



Yea. That happened. You go ahead and you ask a woman who was forcibly penetrated "tell me, did it feel like when you get sniped in Halo 4?" I dare you. But this is the kind of crap that comes from your average social justice blogger. I know because technically, I've reluctantly taken on the role of one; and while I fully acknowledge both the irony and the hypocrisy of complaining about them while being while, I try my damnedest to avoid the histrionics commonly associated with it. But none the less, I'm in the thick of it, and I don't think most people know how ridiculous it gets. These are the type of people Mike was addressing. The type of people (I promise you, these are all things I've personally encountered) who tell you that "the concept of virginity is an oppressive societal construct created by men who think their penis is special it changes who a woman is." The type of people who say that all marital sex before 1993 was rape because of an incredibly obscure, 300+ year old declaration from England that wasn't formally removed untill 93. The type of people who say:



And don't doubt for a moment that he gets emails from offended people like that every day.

People got angry at him for saying that people who are biologically male are male, and those who are biologically female are biologically female. By and large, these are the same people who will vilify religion for not adhering to accepted science; but will rage if you don't accept the belief that a person's scientific classification doesn't count if that person disagrees with it.

In the past few months, I've grown to have a stronger respect for people who don't identify with their sex. I've received a lot of support from the transgendered community in response to WTFeminism, because they tell me they get a lot of flack from the feminist community who treat people who are biologically female but identify as male as traitors, and males who identify as males "just don't count." But that being said, male/female and man/woman are biological terms with fairly clear-cut definitions. With the exception of the less than a dozen people in recorded history who were born with chromosomal mutations, such as a mutated CBX2 gene which overrides the SRY component, effectively nullifying the Y chromosome; it's a fairly clear-cut determination that does not take psychology nor brain chemistry into account.


Frankly, I find it rather hypocritical that the same people who will vehemently defend a writer or comedian for making derogatory jokes about men, religion, or a any other topic that offends a lot of people on the grounds of "it's freedom of speech" or "you need to get a sense of humor" or the ever-popular on the internet "saying you're offended is like saying I should change because you can't control your emotions"; will absolutely rage when the joke is about something that bothers their sensibilities. Funny how that works.

[Metcarfre]

I think that if this was an isolated incident people would be more willing to just say it was a dick move and move on, but the fact that Penny Arcade court controversy so regularly is, I think, just making people tired of it. Not saying that opinion's right or wrong, but I do rather see where they were coming from

Yeah, I think that's it exactly. It's pretty simple, let's just see if it happens again. Or, rather, when something similar again, let's see if they modify their approach and response.

[JustAName]

Wraith, you are massively generalizing. "Cis" is used by far more people than those you claim (unless you think that by trying to patiently explain things to people, I am exactly the same as people who irrationally hate people as a way to "counter" oppression). :/ I... was going to mute you, but I'd just read your posts anyway because my curiosity tends to get the better of me. Bluh.

[Wraith]

Wraith, you are massively generalizing. "Cis" is used by far more people than those you claim (unless you think that by trying to patiently explain things to people, I am exactly the same as people who irrationally hate people as a way to "counter" oppression). :/ I... was going to mute you, but I'd just read your posts anyway because my curiosity tends to get the better of me. Bluh.

That's why I said "typically." I've no doubt that their are normal, rational people who use it; but I've yet to hear it outside of face-palm-tastic social justice warriors (such as the person who wrote the article linked to in the OP, who postulated that we should consider killing female gamers in online games a form of rape). The point is, his comment "if you use the word cis, don't bother talking to me" was addressed at these people. You can get offended as much as you want, but this whole thing is exactly what I'm talking about - people taking something wildly out of context and blowing it out of proportion.

The man's not driving a hate-train. He didn't say "God hates f**S" he said "save the drama." You can mute me if you want. Some times it's easier to just cover your ears so you don't have to think bout the other side of the story; but I try to remain as objective as possible while maintaining my own opinion, and if you draw the line so close to yourself that something like what I posted was over it? You're going to have to hide from a rather overwhelmingly large portion of the world.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Wraith, we're quite happy to consider other viewpoints here, but please try not to present yours through the medium of artillery fire.

[Trisha Lynn]

Wraith, you are massively generalizing. "Cis" is used by far more people than those you claim (unless you think that by trying to patiently explain things to people, I am exactly the same as people who irrationally hate people as a way to "counter" oppression). :/

That's why I said "typically." I've no doubt that their are normal, rational people who use it; but I've yet to hear it outside of face-palm-tastic social justice warriors (such as the person who wrote the article linked to in the OP, who postulated that we should consider killing female gamers in online games a form of rape).

Until the Trans-People on Twitter (someone else come up with a better moniker, please?) issue, I wasn't even fully aware what "cis" meant in a gender studies way, so I looked it up. And I have to admit that when it comes to a word or phrase that defines someone's baseline experiences, calling myself a cis-hetero female is way shorter than calling myself a "woman who's had mostly heterosexual relationships with a few experiences with bisexuality." And I think that when I wade into gender issue discussions and debates on the Internet, I believe I'll continue to call myself a cis-hetero or a cis-female because that's the best way to present from which perspective I'll be arguing my points.

Speaking to your points, Wraith, when I think of the premise of Patricia Hernandez' article regarding the conflation of killing PCs in Call of Duty to rape, I also think about the arguments regarding Resident Evil 5, where the "infected" were from a country which had a lot of black people in it, so killing off all the infected zombies was conflated to a genocide on black people; ergo, they felt the game was racist. Whether or not that was the authorial intent when the developers made that game, that's the impression that this particular writer was able to get from it. This is the curse of having been an English major: You can argue and find textual and contextual examples to support almost anything.

I think that continuing to have this conversation is good, and finding common grounds for terms and terminology is good as well—even if those terms were originated by hyperbolic and/or easily excited people. That way when we have these discussions, there's less confusion about what we all mean. Which is another way of saying that had Mike Krahulik bothered to look up what "cis" meant and why someone who is interested in teaching him about gender politics would use that term and associate it with him, perhaps a lot of hurt could have been avoided.

Because there's no way he can deny that for most of his life, Mike Krahulik has deliberately kept himself in the dark regarding some things. Remember the Fourth Panel episode where they wrote about the same-sex possibilities in Mass Effect 3, and the same-sex love scene between Man!Shep and the other human whose name I don't know because I haven't played ME3 yet? And Mike was totally flabbergasted and shocked and almost betrayed by the idea that his best friend Jerry sometimes liked to look at man-on-man porn, or at least wasn't disgusted by seeing male penises in porn the way he was? So many critics and other people forget that about him, but I haven't.

Going back to my op-ed, I feel that there are so many things he can learn. And I do believe he was being sincere in his apology... until the next time he flips out on someone or the next time he and/or Jerry put up a news post that doesn't include the words, "Yeah, we looked into this thing and read this article and talked to this person whose opinion we trust, and we still don't understand it or agree with it, so fuck you; here, have a cartoon" that is.


Trisha Lynn
...I feel an "Evolution in Mike Krahulik" article coming soon...

[DissonantNight]

[Message Deleted by User]

[Metcarfre]

OTOH I have to say I've only ever seen "Cis-scum" and its negative ilk in articles/etc attacking "feminism" or "gender studies".

I only rarely see the term "cis-[gender/whatever]" applied at all, but I don't particularly spend much time paying attention to LGBT blogs/debates or what have you.

[Wraith]

I think that continuing to have this conversation is good, and finding common grounds for terms and terminology is good as well—even if those terms were originated by hyperbolic and/or easily excited people. That way when we have these discussions, there's less confusion about what we all mean. Which is another way of saying that had Mike Krahulik bothered to look up what "cis" meant and why someone who is interested in teaching him about gender politics would use that term and associate it with him, perhaps a lot of hurt could have been avoided.

The trouble is that it didn't start with someone wanting to have a friendly conversation. It began with self-righteous criticism of him because he referred to men and women without making special annotation for "non-cis" people. In short, they got angry at him for using the scientific terms for what people (with the exception of about half a dozen or so people over the course of recorded history) are.

That is a stupid thing to get angry with someone about, and he essentially said "this is a really stupid thing to be pissed off at me about; if you're one of these people, you should know I really don't care, leave me alone" in 140 characters or less.

Because there's no way he can deny that for most of his life, Mike Krahulik has deliberately kept himself in the dark regarding some things.

There's a difference between "hasn't actively sought something out" and "deliberately kept himself in the dark about." There are plenty things in this world I know nothing about. There are plenty of things in this world that you know nothing about. The fact that something doesn't spur our interest doesn't mean we've decided to go with an "ignorance is bliss" mentality. I mean, where does something like this even come up regularly? I can think of two places:

1. Social justice blogs, and with the amount of crazy I see every day, I don't blame anyone for not wanting any part of that scene.

2. Gender studies courses; which are by and large the most distorted, biased unreliable courses available from mainstream colleges.

Remember the Fourth Panel episode where they wrote about the same-sex possibilities in Mass Effect 3, and the same-sex love scene between Man!Shep and the other human whose name I don't know because I haven't played ME3 yet? And Mike was totally flabbergasted and shocked and almost betrayed by the idea that his best friend Jerry sometimes liked to look at man-on-man porn, or at least wasn't disgusted by seeing male penises in porn the way he was? So many critics and other people forget that about him, but I haven't.

Didn't watch it. Discussion panels don't really do anything for me. I mostly just know PA from their comic, and now from Check Point. That being said, and going only off your description;

A straight guy who doesn't enjoy seeing cock?

Certain things turn people on, certain things turn people off. For some, scat is a completely hot, erotic thing to see in porn. For most of us, watching someone take a crap is the last thing on earth we'd want to see. Why is it OK for to be grossed out by one thing other people find erotic, but wrong to react the same way for another?

[Wraith]

OTOH I have to say I've only ever seen "Cis-scum" and its negative ilk in articles/etc attacking "feminism" or "gender studies".

Did you not see my post? Because I put up a picture of it. Now you've seen it at least one time. If you'd like, I can show you a whooooooooole lot more. The reason it's used in articled attacking feminism and gender studies is because so many feminists who come OUT of gender studies USE the term a lot, which PROMPTS articles attacking feminism and gender studies.

[Metcarfre]

OK

[Wraith]

Wraith, we're quite happy to consider other viewpoints here, but please try not to present yours through the medium of artillery fire.

Artillery fire? What, precisely did I say that constitutes "artillery fire?"

"Artillery fire" would be "I don't need lessons in tact from the guy who used a religious friend's cancer announcement as a soap box to deride said religion while his loved ones were offering up prayer."

That would be artillery fire. I'm good at that. What I presented in my post here, was at worst water-balloon flinging.

[CommanderKeen]

There's a difference between "hasn't actively sought something out" and "deliberately kept himself in the dark about."

THIS. Up until college the number of gay/trans/ people who are different from me was severely limited, so the opportunity for discussion and building relationships wasn't a possibility. Sure, I had heard about the gays and such, but it wasn't "real" because I had never met someone who was.

Come college and my professional life and I run into folks all the time who aren't like me. I'm FAR more accepting than I once was simply because I was able to to put faces to various terms used and that's okay. I think one of the problems is that this is still a very vocal, but TINY minority of people talking. So the opportunity to meet said people is lacking. I mean when there's maybe 2-3 kids in my grad class who were openly gay in a class of 400, it's not exactly something that's common.

So yes, you should be accepting and understanding, but you can't exactly get mad with people when their worldviews don't include x, because its usually because they haven't had that experience yet, not because they hate x.

Oh and Lying, that's not artillery fire, that's real talk cutting through academic BS. Welcome to the real world.

[Metcarfre]

Were we having an academic discussion? Is this a gender studies class?

Am I getting credit for this?

[King Kool]

Maybe we shouldn't get too far into this particular thorny issue. Let's not get this locked, please.

[Wraith]

But isn't this particularly thorny issue kind of central to the whole POINT of this thread? The thread is "The Mike Problem," and people didn't really start talking about Mike being a problem until this issue came up. We're discussing the right or wrongness of what he said.

[JustAName]

But we weren't discussing the initial incident except as related to this, and we weren't really discussing the trans* thing at all. We were talking about his saying the decision to pull the dickwolves shirts was a mistake. A lot of people felt unsafe after he said that, so we were discussing how that had happened and whether or not PAX was still worthwhile for some of us, and how we could effect a positive change.