This thread is so gay

[Kthanid]

Religious institutions and religious conservatives are very very very slow to change, but they will change and eventually fade into the background while more liberal views/beliefs come forward. I feel that's a cycle that's repeated again and again throughout history in different cultures and civilizations.

[AlexanderDitto]

Faith is personal. The "Church" is the people.

Or if you're embittered to assume all of THE CHURCH is bad.

This is the gay thread, not the Religion thread, so let's make a distinction:

"The Church" we were talking about is The Catholic Church, which is a worldwide institution that operates much like a business. They have headquarters, leadership, assets, income, expenses, a hierarchy. The decisions of their hierarchy affect the way their business is run and the way people view them and choose to buy their product or not. Their product being a certain brand of religion.

Spirituality and religion are different things. Spiritually, the Catholic Church may "be" it's people, but in a real, tangible sense, it is not, any more than "we" are LoadingReadyRun. I'm not talking about spirituality here. I'm not talking about any sort of god, yours, or whoever's. Frankly, neither is the pope.

If the Catholic church continues to bash gay people, fight against birth control and condoms, and continues to allow child abuse to go unpunished, fewer people will want to consider themselves religiously Catholic. They might continue to be spiritual, but if their butts aren't in the pews putting money in the baskets and enrolling their kids at their schools, that spirituality won't do much to help the support the costs incurred by the Vatican, the archbishops, the bishops, the clergy, the monasteries and convents etc etc.

You can be not "Catholic for life"... you can slip around...

Perhaps you should have a talk with my parents. Or with, you know, 82% of Latin America. You say you're a christian, which is less specific than Catholic, so maybe you don't have experience with this... I mean Catholicism with a capital C, rank-and-file Catholic, not spiritually or culturally catholic. At least according to the Catholic Church. You don't "slip around" as a Catholic. You either adhere to the word of The Church, or you're not a Catholic. If the pope says gays are sinful and should be rejected, you'd better agree, otherwise you're wrong. And, it's fine if you want to be wrong, but you're still wrong, and need to confess that as sin so you can be absolved.

It's like saying you're a Mars Bar, but without the caramel. Maybe YOU still think of yourself as a Mars Bar, and maybe a bunch of people think, honestly, everyone's better off without the caramel, and actually, it's even better if we put nuts in, maybe nuts are good? Doesn't matter, Mars Inc. isn't going to sell you as a Mars bar.

[Duckay]

There's really two prevailing points of view on this. Depending on who you ask, either you adhere to the laws of the church or you're out, or if you're baptized, you're in for life (and if you fail to adhere to the laws of the church, you're a bad Catholic, but a Catholic nonetheless).

[viscomica]

There's really two prevailing points of view on this. Depending on who you ask, either you adhere to the laws of the church or you're out, or if you're baptized, you're in for life (and if you fail to adhere to the laws of the church, you're a bad Catholic, but a Catholic nonetheless).

Actually, no. After the baptism and the eucharist, there's another catholic ritual named as confirmation that basically works this way: If you take it you're revalidating your parents's decision to baptize you. If not it's like saying "hey, I had no say in this when I was a baby and I want out" And you're out.

So yeah, the thing is, most catholics believe it's better to be more progressive and if church does not want that, then too bad, there will be fewer catholics then. So I can understand why they are being less hateful toward homosexuals. People should not be so naïve as to think Pope Francis can actually change Church. He was chosen to become the Pope for a reason.... a very political reason.

[Duckay]

Ah, shit, sorry. I almost said "confirmation", and then I thought I might have been thinking about something else. I should have trusted my first instinct.

[Bebop Man]

Fuck Bergoglio. I put up with his irascible, primitive bullshit all my life. Now he's pope and wants to pretend like he was humble and tolerant all along, fine strategy, it'll get you more places than channeling your inner intolerant geezer dipshit. But I know what he really stands for. That he is now the head of the church only undermines my respect and credibility for the institution. Desperate much, the hypocrites.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

And yet again I kick the hornets' nest in this thread <3 Unintentionally.

[AlexanderDitto]

And yet again I kick the hornets' nest in this thread <3 Unintentionally.

No hornet's nest! No one is angry! <3 Well, angry at the cultural institution that made my childhood kind of miserable, yes, but not angry at you!

You can and should say what you feel in this thread. I'm sorry that I got a little defensive there.

[Avistew]

Back to baptism, you can have your baptism revoked and be removed from the lists. I know because I know people who have done it.
On the other hand, it does mean that, at least in France, there is a list of anyone who has ever been baptised and they're considered to be Catholics regardless of their religious opinions or lifestyle (hence why a number of them actively get out of the list. But more just don't care and do nothing about it).

[Bebop Man]

I can see myself working to get off the baptism list. But since I never took the confirmation I always thought that was good enough.

[viscomica]

Hmm, in Argentina at least, there is no baptism list. And it wouldn't be relevant to hold one, I reckon. What for, anyhow?

[Bebop Man]

It's like a Santa Claus list for kids who go to purgatory once they're dead.

[Avistew]

Honestly, I think its only use is that the Church can use it to inflate their numbers and make it look like more people are into the religion than actually are. It's not like they ever contact you or share your information as far as I know.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

And yet again I kick the hornets' nest in this thread <3 Unintentionally.

No hornet's nest! No one is angry! <3 Well, angry at the cultural institution that made my childhood kind of miserable, yes, but not angry at you!

You can and should say what you feel in this thread. I'm sorry that I got a little defensive there.

I got defensive too. I'm weary from uninformed negative opinions about faith, that I see them everywhere.

I live in rural Wales, and I used to volunteer at a none-profit craft shop & cafe.
The trustees for the shop (as far as I know) are all Catholic.

One of them said that it was "God's path" for her that she'd become Catholic. Which implies that she (who is very strong in faith) considers "allegiance" to churches to be fluid.

The trustees are all very nice people.

Perhaps in rural areas where faith is more organic and less institutionalised thing fobby losing my trail of thought...

I'm only talking about faith, because The Church was brought up.
The Established Catholic Church is an irony. The core aspect to Christianity is that you don't need anyone to speak to "God". The Pope should not be needed in his role.
-
Back on gayer topics.

It was raining the other day. A bloke thought it was a good idea to go jogging in a white t-shirt. I agreed with his idea.

[Dominic Appleguard]

I'm only talking about faith, because The Church was brought up.
The Established Catholic Church is an irony. The core aspect to Christianity is that you don't need anyone to speak to "God". The Pope should not be needed in his role.

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

[Bebop Man]

I'm only talking about faith, because The Church was brought up.
The Established Catholic Church is an irony. The core aspect to Christianity is that you don't need anyone to speak to "God". The Pope should not be needed in his role.

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Quotes from the Bible should be taken with a grain of salt, seeing as this is the same source material that blames women for everything that's wrong with the world. I wonder how much percentage of the Bible is still any worth acknowledging.

[My pseudonym is Ix]

The Bible is a very, very old book (exactly how old is very much up for debate since apparently all modern editions date from a version that came out in around the ninth century AD) that mainly consists of (I apologise to all Christians for this gross simplification) a mixture of Jewish mythology, stories about Jesus and the contributors' opinions on law. The third of these is rather out-of date. Law and statutes get out of date surprisingly quickly (the bill that essentially signed King James II's resignation was by modern standards incredibly progressive in allowing freedom of religion, but at the time it was seen as an indication that the Catholics were to take over the establishment and would turn England into a pawn of Rome, so was objected to fiercely), so many of these old-fashioned laws are probably due an update and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

The other two categories are more usefully subdivided not as Jewish and Christian, but as those that either a) are intended to tell stories about God and show off his power (parting of the Red Sea, water into wine and so forth) or b) serve as morality tales. The extent to which category a) is relevant really depends on whether you're a Christian or not, but category b) is absolutely important today because these views on Christian morality have defined the moral compass for pretty much all of western culture. Jesus' principles of brotherly love and equality and everyone being nice to each other are the cornerstones of what we consider to be morally 'right'- had the eastern world ended up leading the march of industrialisation and 'progress' into our modern world, we would probably value things like honour and strict adherence to one's place in the social hierachy as significantly more important (the fact that these things were absolutely a part of the moral code in the pre-industrial west is another, equally interesting, issue entirely).

Oh, and whilst I agree that Bible quotes should frequently be taken with a pinch of salt, it's not necessarily true that it claims women are to blame for everything that's wrong in the world. Whilst it states that they let original sin into the world, the Bible is adamant on its themes of forgiveness and if any Christian is still blaming women for that then they haven't read the whole 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' parable. And in any case, most of the subsequent sin perpetuated in the good book is perpetrated by men.

Phew, sorry about that.

[AlexanderDitto]

I didn't respond to MM because this is the gay thread, not the religion thread. Let's not get into this argument here. I am tired of the interbutts being arguments.

[Dominic Appleguard]

I regret continuing the faith diversion, and also slightly regret bringing up the Catholic Church in the first place, and I respect Ditto too much to further incur his wrath.

It's possible that this forum needs a separate thread for talking about faith...but then again that might be a more flammable topic than I'd prefer. I will think on this.

[ex-Lurker]

Well then, in the interest of not talking about religion, what would you guys consider the largest barrier to gay (and others) acceptance in society other then religion?
I would say the lack of education and understanding leading to the "squick" factor.

[Tycherin]

Realistically? Older generations.

I know that's painting with a broad brush, but on the whole there's much greater resistance to acceptance of homosexuality (and all non-hetero orientations, for that matter) the older the age group you look at. Younger generations are more amenable to that sort of thing. That's not to say there aren't intolerant twenty-somethings (oh man are there ever), but the trend is there.

[Timelady]

Soooooo I'm asexual.

Know this isn't the right thread for that, but it seemed the closest all things given. Would've been a hell of a thing to through in the Kickstarter thread, though, I have to admit. Hi!

[ex-Lurker]

Welcome to the club, I suppose this is as good a thread as any to do that.
(Though to be fair I have no idea where I came out as asexual on the forums)

[Psyclone]

I think I came out here too. And like Lurker said, welcome to the club!

[LogicSword]

Think I came out in the sex thread... Also, wooooooooo! There are a fair few of us now...