The Magic Venting Thread
Re: The Magic Venting Thread
At PAX east I sorted something out with an opponent (a quirk involving fight and double-strike) and we were both pretty sure we knew what the deal was but called over a judge just to make 100% sure as it was game 3 of the final round of a draft. It's just an assurance thing, if you have access to the judge you might as well be 100% sure you're doing it right when there's any kind of uncertainty.
When the upkeep takes longer than the main phase, I know I've done my job well.
Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Time for some venting courtesy of MTGO user Jaguar5555 (not a fan of calling people out, unless they are total jerks like this person). So I join an Innistrad flashback swiss draft (I wasn't playing back when it was out so I didn't want to jump in an 8-4). I drafted a pretty sweet mono-white aggressive deck, no real bombs but just a ton of 2 and 3 drops and a few tricks and removal spells. First round I play this Jaguar5555 and game 1 I win when they didn't get any red mana. At that point they offered up a few comments about me being lucky etc., but nothing that bad. Game 2 they play a turn 4 Falkenrath Aristocrat, I block it forcing them to sac their only other creature. Next turn I slam a Slayer of the Wicked to kill it, which of course brings out plenty of salt from them.
Next turn they slam a Bloodgift Demon (yeah the person calling me out for being lucky just went turn 4 into turn 5 bombs). They attack with it next turn and I flash in a Hollowhenge Spirit to remove it from combat. Now they start to get nasty calling me a "fat neckbeard" and such. They go on to win that game and then in game 3 he slams the same 2 bombs on turns 4 and 5 and I still nearly win (I had lethal on board but forgot to play a 6th land prior to attacks so I could cast and flashback a Rally the Peasants).
I ended up more upset at missing a win (the ultimate way to get back at people like this) than anything they said, but I still got the satisfaction of blocking and then reporting them. And managed to win the next 2 rounds to end on a winning note. One of the few times I ever had to report someone, I'm fairly lenient with such things, but this person went way beyond just being salty.
Next turn they slam a Bloodgift Demon (yeah the person calling me out for being lucky just went turn 4 into turn 5 bombs). They attack with it next turn and I flash in a Hollowhenge Spirit to remove it from combat. Now they start to get nasty calling me a "fat neckbeard" and such. They go on to win that game and then in game 3 he slams the same 2 bombs on turns 4 and 5 and I still nearly win (I had lethal on board but forgot to play a 6th land prior to attacks so I could cast and flashback a Rally the Peasants).
I ended up more upset at missing a win (the ultimate way to get back at people like this) than anything they said, but I still got the satisfaction of blocking and then reporting them. And managed to win the next 2 rounds to end on a winning note. One of the few times I ever had to report someone, I'm fairly lenient with such things, but this person went way beyond just being salty.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
JQuill wrote:Time for some venting courtesy of MTGO user Jaguar5555 (not a fan of calling people out, unless they are total jerks like this person). So I join an Innistrad flashback swiss draft (I wasn't playing back when it was out so I didn't want to jump in an 8-4). I drafted a pretty sweet mono-white aggressive deck, no real bombs but just a ton of 2 and 3 drops and a few tricks and removal spells. First round I play this Jaguar5555 and game 1 I win when they didn't get any red mana. At that point they offered up a few comments about me being lucky etc., but nothing that bad. Game 2 they play a turn 4 Falkenrath Aristocrat, I block it forcing them to sac their only other creature. Next turn I slam a Slayer of the Wicked to kill it, which of course brings out plenty of salt from them.
Next turn they slam a Bloodgift Demon (yeah the person calling me out for being lucky just went turn 4 into turn 5 bombs). They attack with it next turn and I flash in a Hollowhenge Spirit to remove it from combat. Now they start to get nasty calling me a "fat neckbeard" and such. They go on to win that game and then in game 3 he slams the same 2 bombs on turns 4 and 5 and I still nearly win (I had lethal on board but forgot to play a 6th land prior to attacks so I could cast and flashback a Rally the Peasants).
I ended up more upset at missing a win (the ultimate way to get back at people like this) than anything they said, but I still got the satisfaction of blocking and then reporting them. And managed to win the next 2 rounds to end on a winning note. One of the few times I ever had to report someone, I'm fairly lenient with such things, but this person went way beyond just being salty.
The salt. Its real.
But seriously, how can you curve out into a turn 4 and turn 5 bomb TWICE and still get pissed and say someone else was lucky. People... ugh. Frustrating.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
I played against a very aggressive player tonight. It was uncomfortable.
He had the Chariot of Victory down, played had Goldenhide Ox down with the chariot equipped to it. with 7 mana. He played Thassa's emissary down on it, I said "on main phase I play Griptide"
Now to me, I meant "On my response time at the end of your main phase" he took it as a response to thassa's emissary being cast and he tapped his last mana to equip chariot. I said "no you cant equipping is a sorcery you cant respond with a equip" he said "no you didnt wait until I declared attackers. We went back and forth and he was insistent and continued to be aggressive in pressing, that I dont get a response at the end of his main phase. So I called judge.
I explained what I said and when I said it, he said that I cast it in response.
The judge asked what I said and I said again "on main phase I play Griptide" and explained what I meant. The judge said "I understand what you mean and you (opponent) are wrong he does get a response trigger at the end of your main phase, but because you didnt say "end of main phase" Im going to rule that you did it on his part of the main phase in response to the casting, you should have just waited until he declared attacker then it would have been more clear"
so he had a 3/3 haste and another 3/3 something or other on the board I was at 3 life with one blocker.
BULL CRAP!
What do you do when the only judge who is the TO makes the wrong call.
I ended up winning with a 3-1 and that guy was my only loss but it really ticks me off that he got away with that.
He had the Chariot of Victory down, played had Goldenhide Ox down with the chariot equipped to it. with 7 mana. He played Thassa's emissary down on it, I said "on main phase I play Griptide"
Now to me, I meant "On my response time at the end of your main phase" he took it as a response to thassa's emissary being cast and he tapped his last mana to equip chariot. I said "no you cant equipping is a sorcery you cant respond with a equip" he said "no you didnt wait until I declared attackers. We went back and forth and he was insistent and continued to be aggressive in pressing, that I dont get a response at the end of his main phase. So I called judge.
I explained what I said and when I said it, he said that I cast it in response.
The judge asked what I said and I said again "on main phase I play Griptide" and explained what I meant. The judge said "I understand what you mean and you (opponent) are wrong he does get a response trigger at the end of your main phase, but because you didnt say "end of main phase" Im going to rule that you did it on his part of the main phase in response to the casting, you should have just waited until he declared attacker then it would have been more clear"
so he had a 3/3 haste and another 3/3 something or other on the board I was at 3 life with one blocker.
BULL CRAP!
What do you do when the only judge who is the TO makes the wrong call.
I ended up winning with a 3-1 and that guy was my only loss but it really ticks me off that he got away with that.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but that isn't how I understood priority in the main phase working. If he says "I pass priority", directly or implicitly, and you take an action in his main phase, I understood that because it was still his main phase he can continue to cast sorcery speed things if he wishes after that resolves, as he will gain priority again in response to your action, and then after your spell has resolved, before the phase ends. (Ie. you both must pass priority without action before the phase ends). Hence why it is usually better to wait until beginning of combat step or declare attackers in order to do that.
Am I wrong here?
Am I wrong here?
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
(Editing out since it was explained better by someone else)
Last edited by Kapol on 11 Jun 2014, 20:11, edited 2 times in total.
- korvys
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
I'm sorry to say, Hosk, he was correct. If you acted in his main phase (and I realise that's not what you were trying to do, but it's what you said), even if you didn't cast it in response to the creature, then once Griptide has resolved, he is still in his main phase and he can play sorceries, creatures, activate equip, etc.
I'm putting this in here, cause it might not be what you want to hear, but if you'd like to know the technical details of phases and passing priority, read on:
Unfortunately, in Magic, [some] words have a very specific, technical meaning, and Main Phase is one of them.
Of course, there's more going on here. While your opponent may be passionately defending his position, if he is getting aggressive about it, that is not appropriate and you should call a judge anyway.
Also, if you disagree with the judge, there's a few things you can do, though none of them would likely help here. Ask to speak to the head judge if there is one. If there is not, or the head judge upholds the ruling, you will have to continue with the game. However, most judges will be happy to speak to you after the game about the ruling, and try to explain the situation, as long as they are not busy.
Judges are human too, and can make mistakes. If you think one is wrong, and you confirm this here, or with another judge maybe, feel free to discuss this with them the next time you see them. Most judges would rather learn from their mistakes, so they don't make them in the future, though it doesn't solve your particular problem.
I'm putting this in here, cause it might not be what you want to hear, but if you'd like to know the technical details of phases and passing priority, read on:
A more thorough explaination... - Click to Expand
In most phases/steps, the active play gets priority. They can do something, or they can pass, and the non-active player gets priorty. If both players pass, and there is nothing on the stack, the phase/step ends. If either player does something, the active player gets priority again, then the non-active player. If both pass, the top thing on the stack resolved, and the players get priority again.
In this case, your opponent has cast a spell. You could have responded here, or you could have let that resolve. But even if you let it resolve, there is still a point where he has to pass priority, and so do you, in the Main Phase. By saying "in your main phase" you have declared that your action is being done still in his main phase. This means you haven't both passed priority with nothing on the stack, which means the phase hasn't ended, and he gets priority again, and can do main phase things (like equip)
There is a point after the main phase, but before attackers are declared called the Beginning of Combat Step. On MTGO, there is a stop here by default (A stop in MTGO is basically a thing that says "Unlike all of the other points, I might want to do something here, so don't automatically pass my priority for me"). If you cast your spell there, he can't go back to his main phase but hasn't declared his attackers yet.
To do this, I would say "At the beginning of combat, before attackers, I ... <cast griptide, etc>
In this case, your opponent has cast a spell. You could have responded here, or you could have let that resolve. But even if you let it resolve, there is still a point where he has to pass priority, and so do you, in the Main Phase. By saying "in your main phase" you have declared that your action is being done still in his main phase. This means you haven't both passed priority with nothing on the stack, which means the phase hasn't ended, and he gets priority again, and can do main phase things (like equip)
There is a point after the main phase, but before attackers are declared called the Beginning of Combat Step. On MTGO, there is a stop here by default (A stop in MTGO is basically a thing that says "Unlike all of the other points, I might want to do something here, so don't automatically pass my priority for me"). If you cast your spell there, he can't go back to his main phase but hasn't declared his attackers yet.
To do this, I would say "At the beginning of combat, before attackers, I ... <cast griptide, etc>
Unfortunately, in Magic, [some] words have a very specific, technical meaning, and Main Phase is one of them.
Of course, there's more going on here. While your opponent may be passionately defending his position, if he is getting aggressive about it, that is not appropriate and you should call a judge anyway.
Also, if you disagree with the judge, there's a few things you can do, though none of them would likely help here. Ask to speak to the head judge if there is one. If there is not, or the head judge upholds the ruling, you will have to continue with the game. However, most judges will be happy to speak to you after the game about the ruling, and try to explain the situation, as long as they are not busy.
Judges are human too, and can make mistakes. If you think one is wrong, and you confirm this here, or with another judge maybe, feel free to discuss this with them the next time you see them. Most judges would rather learn from their mistakes, so they don't make them in the future, though it doesn't solve your particular problem.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
So the issue is that Mtgo mislabels the "before combat step priory" as "main phase for the non active player"?
So I intended to cast in this before you move to combat step priority which does exist, because wizards has chosen to put the wording wrong I used the wrong wording.
I understood that there was a step where I could cast instants and he could not do anything but respond with his own instants, which there is, but its not called what I called it.
Because if I did that on MTGO on my stop at the arrow, he couldnt have responded with an equip.
So I intended to cast in this before you move to combat step priority which does exist, because wizards has chosen to put the wording wrong I used the wrong wording.
I understood that there was a step where I could cast instants and he could not do anything but respond with his own instants, which there is, but its not called what I called it.
Because if I did that on MTGO on my stop at the arrow, he couldnt have responded with an equip.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
You can't respond to anything with an equip ability, unless you have Leonin Shikari out, which is what your argument was based on. Since equip is only at sorcery speed, you can only equip during your Main phases when the stack is clear and you have priority.
The step where you can cast instants and he can respond with instants is the "Begin Combat" step. That's the step between his Main Phase and him declaring attackers in his "Declare Attackers" phase. That's when you should've played Griptide, not during the end of his Main Phase. I don't see a MtGO "mislabel" here.
If you do something on his Main Phase and the stack clears, he gets priority again and it's still his Main Phase. So what happened was that you Griptided, it resolved, the stack was cleared, he got priority, and sorcery-speed equipped onto his creature, and then you got priority again for the new stack.
Your arrow is pointing to YOUR main phase, though, not his. Is that what you meant to point at? I assume you actually meant to point at the top bar instead.
The step where you can cast instants and he can respond with instants is the "Begin Combat" step. That's the step between his Main Phase and him declaring attackers in his "Declare Attackers" phase. That's when you should've played Griptide, not during the end of his Main Phase. I don't see a MtGO "mislabel" here.
If you do something on his Main Phase and the stack clears, he gets priority again and it's still his Main Phase. So what happened was that you Griptided, it resolved, the stack was cleared, he got priority, and sorcery-speed equipped onto his creature, and then you got priority again for the new stack.
Your arrow is pointing to YOUR main phase, though, not his. Is that what you meant to point at? I assume you actually meant to point at the top bar instead.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
I think the problem here is that MTGO works differently than paper Magic. I'm not sure if MTGO has a thing where, once priority is passed to the non-active player, it basically says 'sorcery-speed items can no longer be cast' in it's programming. So if that is the case, then that is technically wrong. But I haven't played enough with the system (or tried to do anything like that main phase that I remember) to be sure if that's something that actually happens. It just seems like MTGO might be programmed in a way where the 'end of phase' (or when priority is passed by the active player without casting anything with nothing on the stack) creates a situation where the normal main phase rules don't apply due to the coding.
- korvys
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Hosk, the White arrows on the bottom are places you want to stop in your turn (in this case, you main phase, because you probably want to play things), and the ones on the top are places you want to stop in their turn (so not during the main phase, but during what is labeled the "Begin Combat" step).
The begin combat step is where you would want to cast things like griptide, and is the first place you stop on your opponent's turn, by default. I can see how easy it would be to assume you were still in the main phase, given that MTGO basically gives you the option to stop straight after he has played things.
The begin combat step is where you would want to cast things like griptide, and is the first place you stop on your opponent's turn, by default. I can see how easy it would be to assume you were still in the main phase, given that MTGO basically gives you the option to stop straight after he has played things.
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- Duckay
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
For Kapol's benefit; it isn't a Magic Online problem. The main phase works as intended. If you want to do something and only want your opponent able to act at instant speed, you must do it in the step labelled "Begin combat" after the main phase.
- Evil Smurf
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
I started playing magic in 2011, and as a result some of my favourite cards are no longer legal in standard, so I've had to turn to the modern format.
- tamaness
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Modern pisses me off because fetchlands. It's super-fun except for hunting those bastards down.
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- korvys
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
My Modern deck (Borderpost Restore Balance) has no fetch lands, and only cost me $50. It also has the advantage of no-one knowing what you're doing. Sometimes even once you do it.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Yeah, I am running a (bad) Pod variant. I'm running six fetches (borrowed) in it right now. I've got the makings of a decent Death & Taxes in my binder, though.
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- VectorZero
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
My opponent tapped out for morphling, and I tapped five lands for aftershock.
>.<
>.<
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Tried to draft on magic online... Lost connection twice during the draft and once during deck building. Ended up in 3-colour "stuff".
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
The flood. It's real. Managed to get 13 out of 17 lands within the first half of my deck. Got all the way down to 12 cards in deck, two of which were lands, before I finally lost. Had 3 more removal spells for his one threat in my deck, and I couldn't get them. Look at my next draw after I lose...
land. *facepalm*
For the record, here's 5 cards left in my 12 card deck that would have basically won me the game at that point:
2 Covenant of Blood, 1 Flesh to Dust, 1 Kird Chieftain, and 1 Nightfire Giant. Any one of those would have basically stopped my opponent dead.
land. *facepalm*
For the record, here's 5 cards left in my 12 card deck that would have basically won me the game at that point:
2 Covenant of Blood, 1 Flesh to Dust, 1 Kird Chieftain, and 1 Nightfire Giant. Any one of those would have basically stopped my opponent dead.
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
The only time I've ever had a bad time playing MTG was at the JOU Game Day. My LGS is a pretty casual environment. Hell, our judge is the guy who played only basic lands at GP Manchester. You can imagine my annoyance when a bunch of people showed up with top tier decks just so they could get wins. It's just the smugness of going to a fairly small and casual environment, just to win that annoys me. I'm lucky that my LGS doesn't host constructed events aside from the Game Day, otherwise stuff like this would happen much more often.
Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Flooded or got mana screwed in, I counted, six consecutive MTGO games and total eight out of ten yesterday. :randomness:
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
At FNM last weekend, my first game was against an obnoxious brat of a kid. He kept complaining over and over about how he had a headache, and that's why he drafted badly. He complained when I dropped my bomb (the new Avacyn) and proceeded to kill him through an empty board. Like... it'd be one thing if it seemed like he was just making mistakes. But I'm confident he was playing more than 40 cards, he was playing multiples of bad cards (he was playing at least 2 of the 2-drop artifact with 4,T: Tap a creature), and was generally being really whiny and obnoxious. I don't mind newer players. I mind when they complain the entire match.
- Duckay
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
Background to start with...
A few months ago, something changed with the way I play Magic. I swear I woke up one morning as a nuts and bolts Spike. Turns out a few of my friends did too so we're putting together a team to help one another get better. So we've been sitting down with one another and talking about our strengths and our weaknesses and how we can improve our Magic game.
With all this, though, I have a problem. I realise that I am really bad at noticing my own strengths. My weaknesses I am overwhelmingly aware of, but I find it difficult to sit down with other people and discuss their weaknesses when I feel as though my Magic game is nothing but weaknesses. It also makes it difficult to hear feedback because anything positive reads as insincere to me.
Does that make sense? Does anyone know any strategies to work on that?
A few months ago, something changed with the way I play Magic. I swear I woke up one morning as a nuts and bolts Spike. Turns out a few of my friends did too so we're putting together a team to help one another get better. So we've been sitting down with one another and talking about our strengths and our weaknesses and how we can improve our Magic game.
With all this, though, I have a problem. I realise that I am really bad at noticing my own strengths. My weaknesses I am overwhelmingly aware of, but I find it difficult to sit down with other people and discuss their weaknesses when I feel as though my Magic game is nothing but weaknesses. It also makes it difficult to hear feedback because anything positive reads as insincere to me.
Does that make sense? Does anyone know any strategies to work on that?
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
I don't think that's a Magic specific problem: Impostor syndrome
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Re: The Magic Venting Thread
I suppose it's just the place where it's most apparent to me is when playing Magic. The industry I work with is not structured in such a way that I particularly notice it affecting me there. You are probably right that it carries into elsewhere in my life, though.
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