Fayili wrote:Aside from all the rest of that, which I also have problems with...
If it's not too much to ask, could you also tell me what else you have issues with?
Fayili wrote:Aside from all the rest of that, which I also have problems with...
Fayili wrote:Bluh. I was going to head to bed. Okay... Gimme a minute.
People who start appealing to biology on the topic of gender really tick me off. You say that "Men are not women and women are not men. It’s a simple fact of physiology." What the hell do you even mean by that? Are you completely disregarding trans, genderqueer, and agender people? If you say that, no, you're talking physiologically, are you completely ignoring intersex people?
As to your main point, just as gender is a construction, so is adulthood. There is no line that marks an adult, regardless of gender, sex, or anything else. Frankly, trying to pin that down is silly. If we're going to go with arbitrary, you might as well just make it 18, or whatever the legal "adult" age is where you are. It's pointless.
Finally, I think that any definition of "manhood" in this culture is going to be toxic, because of the centuries of awfulness that have gone into that. And anything you could do to mark out someone as being a good "man" instead of a good "person" is going to be inherently sexist. Even if you try to get chivalric about it, "treat women with respect" is going to imply that women inherently need more special care. "Treat people with respect" is just the mark of a good person. You see where I'm going with this? Masculine role models, toxic or otherwise, aren't going to solve this. Role models of every sort, FOR everyone, might be a start.
King Kool wrote:That is harassment or at least attempted harassment, right? That core assumption is correct, right? If that is so... then why does this person object to what happens to the women of the gaming industry regularly?
...
It really seems like the height of hypocrisy.
korvys wrote:Dubious_wolf: If you haven't, google Toxic Masculinity, it might help frame your thinking (whether you agree with it or not).
Dubious_wolf wrote:korvys wrote:Dubious_wolf: If you haven't, google Toxic Masculinity, it might help frame your thinking (whether you agree with it or not).
I will do this and report back.
quick searches don't yield the most clear cut or concrete info... still looking.
So if I understand what I am reading "toxic masculinity" is the stereotype of the hyper-masculine hyper-aggressive man who has sex with lots of women and fights anyone at the drop of a hat?
is this an accurate definition?
Matt wrote:Dubious_wolf wrote:korvys wrote:Dubious_wolf: If you haven't, google Toxic Masculinity, it might help frame your thinking (whether you agree with it or not).
I will do this and report back.
quick searches don't yield the most clear cut or concrete info... still looking.
So if I understand what I am reading "toxic masculinity" is the stereotype of the hyper-masculine hyper-aggressive man who has sex with lots of women and fights anyone at the drop of a hat?
is this an accurate definition?
More accurately, the social pressures and expectations that place demands on men, requiring them to act in certain ways, and which, in extremes (or arguably well before the extremes) lead to an unhealthy, stunted, and damaging expression of manhood, including, but not limited to acts of aggression and hyper-sexuality.
-m
King Kool wrote:But that couldn't be it, because that would mean they only dislike harassment when it's used against people they identify with, and then the attempted harasser would be a racist, sexist, jingoist, homophobe or whatever. (How come "homophobe" is the only one with "phobe" in it? Racophobia? Sexophobia... I think I just got my answer.)
Prospero101 wrote:...is it weird that I REALLY hope that someday I say something memorable enough to be quoted in someone else's signature?
Valkyrie-Lemons wrote:It's not the only word with 'phobe' in it. I believe the only real difference between a 'phobe' and a 'phobia' is how it is used in a sentence. Someone 'has' a -phobia, therefore they 'are' a -phobe.
Prospero101 wrote:...is it weird that I REALLY hope that someday I say something memorable enough to be quoted in someone else's signature?
I would tend to disagree with that statement, as a phobia is a "fear" of something, and I would not classify most people who are called "homophobic" to be actually afraid of homosexuals. If they were, you'd see people running in fear like "Aaaaah! Get away from me! I'll catch the gay!" or something. Not agreeing with something or not liking something is different from a fear of that thing. I don't like spiders very much (especially since I almost lost my leg to a brown recluse bite), but I'm not afraid of them, so you couldn't classify me as an "arachnophobe."Valkyrie-Lemons wrote:'homophobic' fits the meaning exactly.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.
Prospero101 wrote:...is it weird that I REALLY hope that someday I say something memorable enough to be quoted in someone else's signature?
AdmiralMemo wrote:Well, I've been told many, many times that language is a fluid thing, with words and meanings shifting all the time. Therefore, maybe we can improve upon it so it's not so "weird"?
AdmiralMemo wrote:Unrelated Edit: I only just realized your user picture is supposed to be mountains, a couple of moons, and a cloud against a big sun.
I always thought it was a weird face of some sort with a T-Bone steak down in the lower right corner.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.
Valkyrie-Lemons wrote:So you can have a phobia of something without being scared of it. For example, a lot of homophobes state religious grounds for opposing homosexuality. In other words, they think their religious beliefs are threatened by homosexuals, and thus they have a fear of them.
Matt wrote:language is (maybe) fluid, based on typical usage patterns - it's not something that's so easy to control, and it is typically fluid in the direction of less precision, not more. (that is, words typically come to have more or expanded meanings and usages, not fewer)
I do not interfere with or deny the rights of gay people, nor do I openly express sentiments that are derogatory towards gay people that are simply due to the fact that they are gay. (I have expressed derogatory sentiments towards specific people who are gay for reasons other than the fact that they are gay. People are not defined simply by their sexuality or any other single thing, unless they themselves choose to be.)Matt wrote:I think that's a rough question to ask.
But, if you were to use those religious beliefs in such a way as to interfere with or to deny the rights of gay people, yes I would.
If you were to openly express sentiments that were derogatory or othering toward gay people, I probably would.
If you hold your religious beliefs only to the extent that they apply to you, and not to anyone that does not share your belief, then I would probably not.
I would otherwise strongly advise you to critically examine that particular set of religious beliefs, in either case.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.
CSt wrote:That argument might work better if you wouldn't use "to fear" and "to be scared" as if they were different things, they are synonyms. So no, you cannot fear something without being scared by it, as you yourself so handily proved in your own example.
Prospero101 wrote:...is it weird that I REALLY hope that someday I say something memorable enough to be quoted in someone else's signature?
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