The Limited thread

[jkefka]

Drafting is also highly format-specific. Getting good at M15 drafting is different from getting good at JBT, or M14, or probably Khans, or MMA, or Cube, or VMA....

For a general idea, I was really mediocre at TTT and okay at BTT and JBT, awful at every Ravnica draft format, I did very well when MMA was around by doing something silly (cycling through mono-color decks - a surprisingly viable strategy), and I was excellent at the holiday cube. I don't think I could give the same advice for any two of those.

For M15, with regard to speed, the answer is always "it depends." The most aggro of aggro decks will reliably start slamming in for a lot of damage by turn three or four (marauders etc.), so if you aren't playing that deck you want to make sure you have something you can do before then, even if it's just dropping a deathtouch rats or wall of essence. That said, I've done pretty well with decks that weight fairly heavily on 3-4-5 drops, if I have something to slow down the really aggressive ground decks on 1-2.

Of course, how "cheap" you can treat convoke spells is directly related to how many creatures you can get out ahead of them. One of the reasons white is so nuts with convoke is that white has a lot of good two drops and things like Raise the Alarm that get you a lot of guys very quickly. In the GB deck you posted, that seven-drop convoke spell could probably go for four or five off of your two- and three-drops. As it's a four damage spell, you probably wouldn't really need it until then anyways.

The other thing I have found about M15 is that toughness >= 4 is extremely hard to deal with. Divine Favor has been more of a card than I gave it credit for, just from the huge toughness boost.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, I'm a very reliable 2-1 in swiss, but this is what I've learned so far. More experience, either from watching good people or better yet playing yourself, will also get you pretty far.

[AdmiralMemo]

*shakes head* So...
Even if I were to get good in a format, by the time I would, it'd be changed, and I'd have to completely start from scratch again? That's just messed up.

As I mentioned, even though I completely scrubbed out frequently, I was having fun in the RTR block. I got my decks to do what they were supposed to do. M14: I had fun. Theros: I had fun. Born: I had fun. Early Journey: I had fun, especially Triple-J. Late Journey is where it seemed to fall apart, and I was trying to find out why. I thought that maybe I was screwing up the drafting, and maybe just getting better would help. Win or lose, I like to play my decks, not be curb-stomped in 4 turns or have both of us durdle around for 15 turns because we both got mana-screwed. As long as my deck does what it's supposed to do, I'm happy, even if I lose. Late Journey and M15 pre-release: my decks weren't doing what they were supposed to do. This is the first one that did, and I had a blast playing it. I'm also trying to figure out what I did right with this deck in comparison to what I did before, so I can learn, since I can't tell much of a difference. I do know the powerful piece of advice: don't build your deck around a single card. In that sense, I only got Garruk out in a single draft game, and I only got Ob Nixilis out twice, all 3 at times where I was already winning, so they really didn't affect the game as much as I'd hoped. But that bit did help me, since the games were carried by 4 cards: Child of Night, Eternal Thirst, Carrion Crow, and Accursed Spirit. They were the "cake" of my deck, while Garruk and Ob Nixilis were the "frosting." I think I need to learn how to judge "cake" better, so I don't end up with all "frosting" decks.

Of course, how "cheap" you can treat convoke spells is directly related to how many creatures you can get out ahead of them. ... In the GB deck you posted, that seven-drop convoke spell could probably go for four or five off of your two- and three-drops. As it's a four damage spell, you probably wouldn't really need it until then anyways.

Regarding the Convoke card, I was getting two, maybe three creatures on the board at the same time. Often, it was just an evasive attacker and a blocker and that was it, so I'd only have a chance Convoke with the blocker. Thus, it would've been a 6-drop, and I rarely had 6 mana available.

Well, if you wanted a game that was simple, and could be boiled down to a few incontrovertible pieces of strategical advice... then you're playing the wrong game. Magic is super complicated. There's very little that you can say that is going to be 100% true in all situations... you're not going to have some strategy that can be proven to be correct.

Oh, I know Magic is super-complicated in the playing. You've seen me all over the "Ask a Judge" thread with corner-cases. I love that bit. But playing the game and drafting are completely different animals.

All you can do is take in as many different people's advice as you can, don't take anything as gospel but weight everyone's advice accordingly with how reliable you believe that advisor to be... mix it all up with your own experience, and come up with your own style. This takes a lot of time and practice, but it's what is necessary to get good at a game that's this complicated.

Maybe this is my problem? I don't know how reliable any opinion is from anyone, likely due to my impaired social skills. I'm taking everything at the same weight, and at face value. For example, I know Hosk likes to lie all the frickin' time, but the advice he's given me has seemed to be sound, so I don't know what to do with that. Where do I weight Hosk in comparison to other opinions? And then, apply that to other opinions from other people?

-- sometimes you need to learn a rule, then learn how to break it.

Yes. I'm still trying to learn the rules. Learning how to break them is more advanced strategy than I need right now, so don't give me that. Before I asked for help, I was at drafting arithmetic. I'm learning the drafting algebra right now. Please don't give me the drafting calculus.

[Lord Hosk]

*shakes head* So...
Even if I were to get good in a format, by the time I would, it'd be changed, and I'd have to completely start from scratch again? That's just messed up.

No, there are skills and tricks that you will pick up that stick around. a 2/2 for 2 is always good, if it has a side effect like sack to draw a card, or tap to give another creature vigilance, its even better no matter the limited format.

The subtlety comes that sometimes a 2/4 for 4 is good and sometimes its bad. If there are a ton of X/2 its great if there are a ton of x/3 they just sit there.

but each set does change the value of cards in theros block Oreskos Swiftclaw was a strong card a signal that white was open by pick 4 or 5. In m15 just one set later its a ok card its a 23rd card that you pick up like pack three pick 8 just to fill the curve.

There is no hard set of rules to follow there are rough guidelines that change each new set and even within a set as people realize different card value. M15 draft today is most certainly different from what it will be in two months but the core 70-80% will be the same. being good is knowing the 70% being great is being able to adapt to the changing 20-30% on the fly.

You have to accept that there is no "math" to figure out in magic sometimes 2+2 is 4 and sometimes its 6.

[Duckay]

AdmiralMemo, I would have a little more time for your random and seemingly irrelevant accusations that Lord Hosk is a habitual liar if you hadn't just said that two people giving different draft advice was one of those people "lying". Now I don't know if you mean damaging and malicious lies, or if he had a sincerely different piece of advice to another person based on a different experience.

It also makes me hesitant to keep offering advice because I don't know if I'm going to walk into "Duckay is a liar because she disagreed with someone else about draft strategy".

[Lord Hosk]

I went 0-3 with this deck because of EPIC mana screw. Game one no green, Game two no red, game three 2 land, game 4 screwed up cone of flame targeting 3-2-1 instead of 1-2-3 Game 5 Mull to 6 to 5 and then to 4 all no landers keep a no lander draw 3 land in a row still lose. Game 6 no land 7 no land 6 keep 2 land 5 and never draw another land..

Game one I drew 7 mountains, game two I drew 6 forests, game 3-6 I drew a total of 12 land 5 of it in game 4.

[korvys]

What was your mana base?

[Lord Hosk]

9 mountains 7 forests 1 darksteal.

[ForOhFor Error]

M15 draft happened, P1P1 was a Hornet's Nest, P1P2 was the Burning Anger (got passed by a first-time drafter).

Got the other 2 cards of the infinite combo together as well:

Click to Expand

Went 1-3, but had a fun time. Didn't resolve the combo, but had a few good laughs, and managed to get some stuff for standard together.

[Atifexe]

Did a simulated draft on TappedOut with several strangers. Click here for the deck I built. There was a surprising amount of white going around. Got lucky in Pack 3, with Pick 1 being Avacyn and and Pick 2 being Resolute Archangel. Any and all feedback would be appreciated.

[Lord Hosk]

I need to stop drafting bonkers decks. I draft a OK deck that I think "well I can win a match, MAYBE two if my opponent screws up" and I roll over 3-0. I draft these and cant win. I went 0-3 with this deck.


all three rounds, Game one Obliterate.
Game two epic flood, 10 land on board turn 11 and 9 land turn 9.
game three start to really get in, then my opponents do some 3 card combo that stalls me out, and I then flood from there.

[Kapol]

Honestly Hosk, that deck just doesn't seem like it's able to apply much pressure to the opponent. Your strongest ground creatures are 2-power creatures with not huge toughness. Triple Paragon feels kind of awkward. Your fliers are good, but there seems to be enough ways to deal with them in every color. Like... a single Will-forged Golem will normally be enough to stop you without much trouble. And there seems to be enough removal in the set (mostly burn, but there's still in every color) to deal with your paragons and fliers.

[tamaness]

Click to Expand

My draft deck from last Saturday. The column on the right is my sideboard. I got to ultimate Lilli and Jace once each, and I went 2-1-0.

[JQuill]

After some middling results in M15, I finally took a draft down with this near mono-black deck, in fact going 6-0 in games. I first picked Chandra and 2nd picked Burning Anger, so certainly expected to be red. But then I saw very little red and black was super-open. By the end I decided to just play 4 mountains for the Anger and Nightfire Giant, and since 12 swamps was plenty, I also played a Radiant Fountain as another way to offset the Sign in Bloods and Scudder. Kind of sucked not getting to play Chandra, but I felt this setup was just much more consistent. Burning Anger was the real all-star, just taking over several games. The obvious best targets were Typhoid Rats (not as good at finishing off the game though) and the Giant and Juggernaut (a nice way to get around the card's "drawback").

[ZePancakes]

Playing some vma to pick my spirits up: 4 battle screeches 2 Pianna. The nut.

Edit: ehhhhhh lost in second round to 3 astral slide.dek that person also got a mox sapphire.

[MowDownJoe]

So, I looked at my winning from the M15 Prereleases I played, and was slightly annoyed at the fact that I had 7 packs. 7. That's 2 and a 1/3 drafts. That 1/3 was bothering me, so instead I joined a 4 booster sealed.

Here was my deck:

Click to Expand

And I crushed it. Went 3-0 and won 6 boosters. Now I have 3 drafts worth. Numerous Souls of Shandalar powered out with Generator Servant. I had a game where I had only blue mana for most of the game and still managed to bring the beatdown, with the help of my Paragon (and plenty of protection for him). I even faced a deck that ran Grindclock and multiple Mind Sculpts. Normally, getting hit with 2 Mind Sculpts is pretty scary when you running a 30 card deck, but I had one of those Generator Servant starts and just blew him out before he even knew what hit him. Good times. Will play again some time in the future.

[Phosphatide]

Went 2-1 at FNM, losing in the finals. No Bile Blight promo for me, but my prize packs got me a Shivan Reef and Chord of Calling, so it wasn't all bad.

Pushed myself into GW aggro, nabbing two Ajani's Pridemates and a bunch of 2CMC and 3CMC creatures. My curve topper was a P2P1 Soul of New Phyrexia that I was able to resolve once and use to grind out a game to victory as I was battling an opponent who managed to make a 8/7 lifelinker. A decent deck but unfortunately, besides the Soul, had no real game-enders.

The final match was against the other white player who stole all the Paragons (he managed to get 3 of them) and all the Amphin Pathmages, so I couldn't really fight back at all. Good games overall though.

[phlip]

Doing phantom sealed online, practising for the GP. Screwed up from lack of practise with MtGO a couple of times (stepping through Begin Combat by habit with a Tyrant's Machine on the board... no, bad Phil, no ice cream for you), but still managed to go 2-1, which was pretty nice.

Practise was worthwhile, though, as I did learn something: Cone of Flame is a good card. I mean, I already knew Cone of Flame was a very good card, but it's gone even further up in my estimation. My pool was pretty weak overall, had some mediocre red, and some stronger blue and black, including double Murk Lurker (my first round opponent saw me get Murk Lurker + Zof Shade with 9 mana... attacking him for 6 with lifelink into his empty board... with him at 28 and me at 3, and scooped so hard he dropped from the tournament). But in rounds 2 and 3, I sideboarded into black/red... and had to run some really mediocre cards to hit playables... and my deck was still significantly stronger because Cone of Flame.

Lesson learned: if I open Cone of Flame at the GP, it's not just a sign that I really hope to be in red, but I'd need a pretty compelling reason to not play it.

[Kapol]

Went 3-1 on Friday's draft. P1P1 was a Juggernaut. P1P4 was a Juggenaut. I decided to go U/R artifacts. Got rewarded pack 2 with a foil Scuttling Doom Engine. So good. I also picked up 3 Scrapyard Doge, an Aeronaut Tinkerer, and some other good cards. But sadly, I didn't realize I hadn't gotten other artifacts. A fact that came back to haunt me as the Shrapnel Blast I maindeck did nothing.

Still, I think the deck was very solid. Sadly, my first match was against a guy who dropped down Soul of Zendikar all 3 games, and I never got the gas I needed to finish him. Also made a few misplays as well.

[VectorZero]

Did my 1st IRL m15 draft on the weekend. P1P1, P2P1, P3P1 trip spirits. Also grabbed a couple of raise the alarm, two paragons, two cathars and two sanctified charge. Went mono-white, 2-1, lost to the red-white tokens deck who actually had some removal to break the board stall (which i never saw. I had picked up some blue thinking going tempo but it didn't really do enough.)

[ZePancakes]

Click to Expand

Managed to 3-0 a VMA 8-4 with this deck which I thought was not that great. It proved me very wrong

[Lord Hosk]

So my deck turned out poopy and went 1-2 on the bye...

[Duckay]

Last night I timed out in round 2 of a Theros 8-4 because MTGO wouldn't let me assign blockers, for some reason thinking my opponent's Spirespine needed to block as well. (That is to say, a Spirespine under my opponent's control was not assigned as a blocker in his combat step, and MTGO freaked out).

Weirdest bug I've seen in a while.

[ZePancakes]

Last night I timed out in round 2 of a Theros 8-4 because MTGO wouldn't let me assign blockers, for some reason thinking my opponent's Spirespine needed to block as well. (That is to say, a Spirespine under my opponent's control was not assigned as a blocker in his combat step, and MTGO freaked out).

Weirdest bug I've seen in a while.

You apply for reimbursement?

[Duckay]

Oh, of course I did. I was applying for reimbursement while still talking to my opponent in the chat.

His explanation was "They never anticipated someone would not bestow and attack with Spirespine."

[Duckay]

How many copies of Flesh to Dust is too many?