Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Dan and Paul take an in-depth look at the worlds portrayed Young Adult dystopian fiction.
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Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Paul » 06 Jul 2015, 06:20

It was a key influence on Mad Max and the Fallout series, but this 1975 movie, about 18-year-old Vic and his telepathic dog Blood in a post-nuke landscape, doesn't look so good today. Paul and Dan struggle with the weird mysogyny of A Boy and his Dog, based on the Harlan Ellison short story of the same name, and almost lose it.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Daniel » 06 Jul 2015, 12:57

Youtube link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSGLVUInl0

And here's the Joanna Russ essay I reference: http://www.ejumpcut.org/archive/onlines ... gRuss.html

Next up: Little Brother by Cory Doctorow!
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Daniel » 06 Jul 2015, 13:02

By the way, if you're a fan of the Harlan Ellison story, as I vaguely was from reading it 20 years ago, be aware that this movie is significantly more hateful, for reasons both blatant (that last line, the first five minutes) and subtle. Joanna Russ writes:

"The story is, to my mind, somewhat different from the film; no one in the story is totally sympathetic or totally evil, and in particular the events surrounding the two main cnaracters’ escape from the story’s underground society—he’s an intruder and she’s a native, but both are misfits—are such as to preclude choosing one character as morally better than another. The story’s point seems to be that both the societies, above ground and under ground, are rotten. Furthemore, the story is told from the male character’s point of view, a technique that admits both his relative ignorance of the other people in the tale-and-his natural bias in favor of himself. Films do not have a narrator, and what is seen through the subjective point of view in the story becomes the objective truth of the film."
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Falcon » 06 Jul 2015, 13:34

Joanna Russ has a very problematic view of film that skews how she interprets the movie. She doesn't understand that movies can show a subjective point of view of the world they are portraying and that the viewpoint of the main character is not the viewpoint that the movie is advocating.
There are several things that many people seem to have a hard time understand unless its explained to them. All the main characters are bad people you are not meant to see their actions as good, their motives as justified, or the viewpoints as correct. Both societies are bad, Vic chooses the surface not because its meant to be objectively better but because its the evil he personally prefers. And the violence is treated causally by the characters not to diminish the horror of the violence but to show how terrible the world has become.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Daniel » 06 Jul 2015, 13:58

I've heard the "he's not really the hero" theory a number of times now, and I don't think it holds up. Even if he wasn't distinguished by being the most attractive, dynamic, freedom-loving, ideologically pure member of the cast, there's this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PetTheDog
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Falcon » 06 Jul 2015, 15:00

Being attractive, dynamic, freedom-loving, ideologically pure member of the cast does not make him a hero and neither does him having a dog even if the trope said it does, which it doesn't: "It's just any attempt to soften the edge of a villain". There are many villains that are attractive, dynamic, freedom-loving, ideologically pure member and have an animal they care about.
Right off the bat he is shown as an immoral character that cares nothing for the lives or suffering of others. And while the movie shows that he is not as evil as many other, such as the raiders that kill the girl, that doesn't mean he is meant to be good and the movie emphasizes this point by showing his viewpoint on value of the lives of other.
The first 5 minutes of the movie even plays with your expectations a bit because it knows that the default assumption is that the main character is the 'good guy'. When you here the woman screaming and Vic jumps a raider, it is assumed by most that he is going to save her, but then he cowardly hides for the rest of the raider, is chastised for being an impulsive idiot by a dog, and complains that he can't rape the woman because she is dead. He complained that she could have been "used two or three more times", emphasizing how Vic see others as disposable objects, the only problem with the death is that it deprives him of the use of the person. This scene could easily be skipped if the creators wanted Vic to be a more sympathetic character but they don't, right away the movie makes sure you know that Vic is not a good person. This even continues, after he is done complaining about the woman's death, he yells at and threatens physical harm to Blood. Blood even tells us this he calls Vic disgusting and aggressive and says, "You are not a nice person Albert, not a nice person at all." This is yet again unnecessary if Vic is mean to be seen as 'good', this is Blood talking to the audience as much as its him talking to Vic.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby kimiyoribaka » 06 Jul 2015, 16:03

Hearing the plot summary for this movie gave me the same feeling I got from trying to a certain other short story from Harlan Ellison, "I have no mouth. And I must scream." It's not the feeling of shock or horror that, judging from what I've read of the author himself is probably what he wanted, but rather the sense of pointlessness that makes me sigh.

It sounds like this story was on the same level as Mortal Kombat X, except that MKX was at least funny.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby ritchards » 06 Jul 2015, 22:36

Whenever you chaps mentioned Underground, my mind went to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7900th4Ec8
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Clypheous » 07 Jul 2015, 04:56

Daniel wrote:I've heard the "he's not really the hero" theory a number of times now, and I don't think it holds up. Even if he wasn't distinguished by being the most attractive, dynamic, freedom-loving, ideologically pure member of the cast, there's this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PetTheDog


I suppose this completely depends on your definition of a "hero". If you're saying someone who is morally virtuous, as defined by the society they live in, it's quite possible that he is a hero. His society, such as it is, seems to value being a complete...well...I'm not even sure, but certainly being an upstanding citizen does not seem to provide you with much benefit. It would be sort of like being a traveling accountant in Mad Max or Fallout, you might be a great person, but no one would ever know because you would be dead.

There certainly does not seem to be an ironic edge to this work that some misogynistic works have had, or do have, at the present. He appears to be exactly what he appears, completely unwilling to work with anyone, or try to do anything, other than hang out with his dog and exploit anyone he can find with less power and strength than he has.

Having had a lot of background in political science and sociology, I find worlds like this incredibly harm to believe. Mad Max is actually a much more likely scenario in my mind. A world ruled by powerful dictators using resources and violence to control their populations. The groups that would be successful in a world as described in the work would be ones that can intelligently work together to exploit resources, even if its at the point of a gun. Disasters and anarchy in the past have never caused human nature to change, we always try to band together for greater individual success.

I always wonder about these "lone-wolf" kinds of people and how they survive this long, usually people like this are murdered in their sleep for their stuff, so unless the dog also knows how to use a weapon or something, I think he would be in a lot of trouble.

All in all I have to say that I would not want to live in this world, although if I somehow wound up in this world, I would work to try to develop it into an oligarchy or aristocracy to try to get some general societal stability. This is not the kind of world where being solely a dictator works well due to a lack of structures to protect your leadership, such as religious or long held political beliefs, and democracies require even more advanced structures to be successful.

OK, I've solved all the problems now and this world is now a paradise ready for vacationing. I'll bring the canned peaches.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SoSo_Tsundere » 07 Jul 2015, 06:46

So, I'm never going to be able to watch Adventure Time the same way again. Gosh, they even make jokes about chewing on Princess Bubblegum...
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Falcon » 07 Jul 2015, 11:34

Clypheous wrote:Having had a lot of background in political science and sociology, I find worlds like this incredibly harm to believe. Mad Max is actually a much more likely scenario in my mind. A world ruled by powerful dictators using resources and violence to control their populations. The groups that would be successful in a world as described in the work would be ones that can intelligently work together to exploit resources, even if its at the point of a gun. Disasters and anarchy in the past have never caused human nature to change, we always try to band together for greater individual success.

I always wonder about these "lone-wolf" kinds of people and how they survive this long, usually people like this are murdered in their sleep for their stuff, so unless the dog also knows how to use a weapon or something, I think he would be in a lot of trouble.

All in all I have to say that I would not want to live in this world, although if I somehow wound up in this world, I would work to try to develop it into an oligarchy or aristocracy to try to get some general societal stability. This is not the kind of world where being solely a dictator works well due to a lack of structures to protect your leadership, such as religious or long held political beliefs, and democracies require even more advanced structures to be successful.

OK, I've solved all the problems now and this world is now a paradise ready for vacationing. I'll bring the canned peaches.
A Boy and his Dog is a world of dictators, they just exist underground or in small nomadic packs roaming the wastes because the only food the be found above ground is canned, people, or dogs. And Vic is able to survive only because Blood can psychically sense people so he can warn Vic anytime there is someone near by.
As admirable as your desires would be at this point humanity is likely doomed in a generation nearly the entire population of plants and animals has died off and it looks like humanity will not last another generation, food cannot grow on the surface, below ground the men are sterile, and they refuse to work together.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SixFootTurkey » 08 Jul 2015, 03:37

Dan, having just listened to the latest episode, I must say I'm not entirely satisfied with your 'How would I do?' I could have sworn you were lead out by 'furriosa' (or 'furryosa' depending on the local spelling), who was one of the very few female telepathic dogs...

As an aside, was there an explanation (in either the film or the book) about why only the men were sterile, but none of the women appeared to be?
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Clypheous » 08 Jul 2015, 07:42

SixFootTurkey wrote:Dan, having just listened to the latest episode, I must say I'm not entirely satisfied with your 'How would I do?' I could have sworn you were lead out by 'furriosa' (or 'furryosa' depending on the local spelling), who was one of the very few female telepathic dogs...

As an aside, was there an explanation (in either the film or the book) about why only the men were sterile, but none of the women appeared to be?


I think the explanation was that the plot, such as it is, only worked if the men were sterile and the women were not. It's an incredibly weird situation as almost all environmental conditions that render men sterile, make women even worse off. Men only have the one purpose biologically, so we're pretty well designed to keep doing that up until we're dead. The radiation might cause some problems, but that level of radiation would probably kill everyone before they reached adulthood, not just make the men infertile.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SixFootTurkey » 08 Jul 2015, 08:09

Ah, so no in plot explanation. *Nod*

That seems to fit with the rest of the plot...
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Clypheous » 08 Jul 2015, 10:08

SixFootTurkey wrote:Ah, so no in plot explanation. *Nod*

That seems to fit with the rest of the plot...


Asking why the men were infertile is akin to asking how the zombies in "The Walking Dead" or similar type of situation work. If anyone were to start trying to give an explanation, it would just make it sound stupider than it already is. If the characters just accept it as perfectly reasonable, the audience is also more likely to give it a pass and suspend disbelief.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Daniel » 08 Jul 2015, 10:28

@SixFootTurkey Furriosa! Brilliant! I should have you consult for the next episode. And good point about the fertility. Although of course it's never explained for the men in any reasonable way either. ("we've been too long underground")

@Falcon I think he is intended as a hero, albeit of a raw and harsh type, as befitting the landscape. (maybe he's an anti-hero, since he operates only out of self interest until the end, but thinking about that, he's not judged even as harshly by the narrative as say Walter White or Tony Soprano) The yelling at Blood is clearly just bickering between pals - overall the cute dog and their care for each other makes him endearing. What makes this not work well anymore, and makes this film register as mysogynist to this podcaster, is the apparent difference in how we weight "serial violent rapist" (even after an apocalypse) in 2015 vs 1975.

You could write a story with the pair clearly painted as villains, and mounting horror about the way they operate - as sneaky efficient predators and dangerous scavengers - but for starters you'd need at least one female character who's not a passive victim or a deceitful whore.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Daniel » 08 Jul 2015, 10:31

"movies can show a subjective point of view of the world they are portraying"

I'm not sure you're understanding what Joanna Russ saying: the story is written in the first person, so our only information is coming from what Vic tells us. Whereas the movie lets us watch situations for ourself as from a third party observer. It seems to me inherently less subjective. Is there any hint or indication you saw that this is Vic's version of the story? There's not even a voiceover.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SixFootTurkey » 08 Jul 2015, 18:54

Heh, I could do that, but that might have been my one trick. :P

You don't need to fully explain everything as long as it is consistent. 'The Force' in Star Wars, why a dragon can do dragon things, etc... You start running into issues when something is overlooked that should have been at least touched on. In a post apocalyptic world, science has died down a bit so that they might not understand exactly what is wrong with either sex's reproductive systems. However even if there weren't likely to be people who knew enough science still alive, you could have hints by people who were concerned about dropping birth rates. (This is on par to me with the inconsistencies found in a lot of systems of magic like in Harry Potter, or in the pseudo-science of other scifi settings.)

While writing the response below, I recalled the Newsflesh trilogy, have you read them? They have a pretty interesting take on a zombie apocalypse, and it's set in a world that has reached an equilibrium several decades after the initial zombie outbreak.

@Clypheous
Unless it has a more scientific style, there are a few key differences. First, zombies are often a pseudo-fantasy style of story, similar to the mystical element of Star Wars. (Yes, we're pretending Midichlorians never happened.) Zombies are now a part of public domain, where you can get away with explaining less, because the audience will fill in the gaps with their expectations based on prior experience. (This can be dangerous if you want your zombies to be a little different, so you have to establish - or at least hint at - any differences early enough to allow the audience to get behind your story.)
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Clypheous » 09 Jul 2015, 04:19

SixFootTurkey wrote:@Clypheous
Unless it has a more scientific style, there are a few key differences. First, zombies are often a pseudo-fantasy style of story, similar to the mystical element of Star Wars. (Yes, we're pretending Midichlorians never happened.) Zombies are now a part of public domain, where you can get away with explaining less, because the audience will fill in the gaps with their expectations based on prior experience. (This can be dangerous if you want your zombies to be a little different, so you have to establish - or at least hint at - any differences early enough to allow the audience to get behind your story.)


I think that problem with the last part of that is what I was talking about. How do you make your zombies different if trying to explain how zombies work will just make everyone roll their eyes. Zombies violate several critical laws of thermal dynamics, if there were zombies like the ones in a lot of zombie movies, you would want to harness their powers to create endless clean energy or something like that. It might take a lot of zombies to power a power plant, but that's one thing that zombie apocalypses always have in spades...Zombies!
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SixFootTurkey » 09 Jul 2015, 17:28

I don't know which specifics you're talking about, but there are ways to inform the audience without lecturing them. Talking down to the audience never goes well, and having an info dump for the sake of the audience when the characters should all know it already (or shouldn't know anything) is just silly.

Like I said in the previous post, a lot of zombie movies move into the realm of science-fantasy rather than science-fiction; once they take that step, trying to argue about why zombies are or are not feasible is ill-advised.

If you want a zombie movie that is more focused on the science or pseudo-science of the race, you have to take a different tone with the movie. (Take World War Z - the book, not the movie - it sets a more intellectual tone when discussing zombies; that isn't to say you can't still be humorous.)
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SixFootTurkey » 10 Jul 2015, 03:02

I forgot to add: One of the major problems writers have, is being able to kill their creation. You must be able to make (a LOT of) cuts and edits, and sometimes just wipe the slate clean. (You can even go back, but sometimes starting over is the only way to see where you went wrong.)

You can see where the creators fell short on this note in a lot of literature/cinema (I'm not going into specifics, as I'll admit it's either a bit subjective or maybe just difficult). Anywhere information is given to the audience because the author thinks it's cool, rather than because it makes sense for the audience to witness it. Info dumps and poor dialogue are often seen in place of making it fit the writing or having the setting tell the story. One thing you need to ask yourself, is does the audience really need to know this bit of information? If they do, does it make sense given the tone and world of your story? A good guideline is that if it doesn't directly add to the story, it gets cut; a scene can be really well shot, have witty dialogue, and be well written, but that doesn't mean it belongs.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby 7SecondsLeft » 12 Jul 2015, 12:59

I've not seen the film or read this story (and not sure I want to after hearing the description, despite it being written by Harlan Ellison), but how is this YA? I'm not just talking about the absence of modern tropes like overwrought / unnecessary love triangles or 2 pages of story getting stretched into 5 books and 12 films here, but a plot that seems to revolve around extreme violence, rape and cannibalism seems far worse than anything I ever read while growing up - and I spent all my time in the horror section of the library from an early age.

What's next? Battle Royale? Seriously, it stars lots of young adults, was legally allowed to be shown to 15 year olds in Japan (even though it did get 18-equivalent ratings everywhere else, in the countries that didn't ban it outright), and despite some very bloody scenes, actually isn't all that dark - especially compared to the way A Boy and his Dog was described! Just don't go to the US or Germany to buy your copy on dvd ;)
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby Daniel » 12 Jul 2015, 14:14

An 18-year-old is the driving main character, and it's dystopic. It's a stretch! Neither the story or the movie are YA in tone in the slightest. But there's gonna be a lot of stretchin' before we're through.

Anyway next episode is Maze Runner! (Little Brother is one after, I was wrong)

And Battle Royale is on the list!
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby SixFootTurkey » 12 Jul 2015, 20:08

Battle Royale, isn't that the Hunger Games clone? ;)

I'm quite alright having a some stretching; the less you stretch, the less options you have to explore different avenues that were taken.
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Re: Fight the Future 08 - A Boy And His Dog

Postby 7SecondsLeft » 13 Jul 2015, 01:42

Stretching is good, it just took me a little by surprise - now I know to expect it, the next few podcasts will go a bit easier :)

SixFootTurkey wrote:Battle Royale, isn't that the Hunger Games clone? ;)

lol, but it's a better clone because it has none of the pointless story... Watching all your friends die horribly and bringing down the government? Easy. Deciding if you should fall in love with Pretty Boy Hunk #1 or Pretty Boy Hunk #2? Now that's real end of the world stuff to deal with! :D

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