Feminism general thread

[korvys]

It's late where I am, so I'm going to try to be succinct, but hopefully not obtuse.

- When someone is told that they are incorrect on a matter, that *is* teaching that person the difference between right and wrong, if they choose to learn from it.
- That, in the context of feminism, telling a person that they are wrong often comes in the form of mocking or plain dismissal, is unfortunate.
- That mocking and condescension are likely to result in the person *not* choosing to learn from the conversation is also unfortunate.
- This stems from having to have this conversation over and over and over, and honestly, anyone would get frustrated by that. The hypothetical conversation is not happening in a vacuum. It is happening in a world where not only do incorrect opinions get brought up over and over, the *same* incorrect opinions get brought up over and over.
- Expecting a *particular* person (whoever you are currently talking to, who presumably, at this point, has not offered to educate you) to take the time and energy to educate someone on a topic for which there are plenty of people who *will* educate you, and plenty of resources for you to educate yourself, is unreasonable.
- "We", society, absolutely should educate people, and do so, in the form of the people and resources you can seek out to become educated. "We", each and every one of us individually, should *not* be *expected* to do so personally.
- It *is* reasonable to expect a certain level of self education before getting involved.

"how dare that man have an opinion on something he knows nothing about"
I don't doubt this exact sentiment has been expressed, especially online, where things tend to be simplified. I can only say, when I have heard things like this, they typically were not condemning someone for *having* an opinion, but for acting as though their uninformed opinion should be given as much consideration as an informed one.

Additionally, "informed" in the context of feminism may require that a person have grown up in a society that treats them as inherently weaker, less capable, less valuable, etc, due to an inherent part of their being, have lived through that for their entire life, and then experience whatever the thing is that the conversation is about. This obviously makes it very difficult to become informed, requiring them to imagine themselves not only in the same circumstance but with ALL the same context (historical, societal, etc), and listening to and believing the experiences of those who *have* lived it.



EDIT: Morning korvys is more awake than late-nigh korvys, and is aware this is a little rambly, and stops a bit abruptly, and honestly, I really do need to work on my communication skills. In any case, curious to know if people think I'm on the right track. Or not.

[MotorWaffle]

I take issue with the idea that people have plenty of resources to educate themselves, or plenty of people that will educate them. Feminism is, at it's core, a tool of critical analysis and is most at home in academia, a setting not everyone is afforded the opportunity to explore nor is granted the natural ability to work in. Hell, I've had classmates in Master's level crit courses that struggle conceptualizing a number of concepts put forward by liberal feminism (as in the academic branch, not the political leaning). Even if a person has those resources, there a significant chance that they don't operate at an academic level where they're capable of comprehension.

As for people to explain it, again we're talking almost exclusively at the upper levels of academia (as in post-secondary)which is again a problem for people without financial means or inherent ability. I have never seen a high school actually discuss feminist ideas in nearly the scope required to understand them. And the situation of frustration from having a conversation again and again? It works in reverse to. If it's the fifteenth time someone has been refused an explanation to a way of thinking then they can get frustrated too.

[korvys]

I don't agree with your assertion that feminism is most at home in academia, but I think maybe it's just a issue of terminology? I feel like the colloquial "Feminism", is not the same as the academic "Feminism", in as much as Mythbusters is "Science", but not really the same as "Science" as published, rigorous studies. But it is still valuable, as the XKCD comic points out.

In the same vein, pop-feminism, as we might call it, is still valuable in encouraging people to more thoroughly examine the way society, and ourselves as individuals, view/treat women.

And so by self-educating, I mean things like asking questions of the people around you (as opposed to someone on twitter), or reading up on topics on places like the Geek Feminism Wiki, or read a book by bell hooks, or something. I'm sure there are nuances that people will miss from these sorts of things, not studying this at an academic level, but people have to start somewhere, and most people don't even bother with that.

With regards to the frustration of not having something explained, I was not trying to say that that excused rudeness or insults or mockery, but that it explained it. If a one person is frustrated with not having things explained, and the other is frustrated with having to explain things, it would be nice if both people could get passed that, one taking some time to self-educate, and the other taking the time to explain, but it's unlikely to happen.

[Amake]

Me, I learned most of what I know about feminism as an adult by listening to people. In chat rooms, in threads like this and even in real life it's not that hard to say very little and let people inform you. You've just got to be patient, and resist the impulse to make the conversation be on your terms, and go look up terms to learn more about them.

None of which you see a lot in the kind of person who seeks out conversations on complex topics to insert their opinion in them, i.e. the average interaction one has on the Internet with people with whom one doesn't already agree. So you can see getting jaded is a problem on those rare occasions one encounters someone genuinely trying to learn things.

It could even be argued it's not worth the time and energy to assume such good faith on the part of anyone asking to be educated, since someone genuinely trying to learn (based on my own history at least) won't be dissuaded by an initial cynic dismissal. Depends on your own time and energy reserves I guess.