Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Talk about what you are playing now or join in with one of our forum games.
User avatar
Alex Steacy
Posts: 2264
Joined: 12 Mar 2004, 22:35
First Video: Beats me! No seriously Graham hits me.
Location: In transit
Contact:

Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Alex Steacy » 28 May 2013, 15:54

http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/28/anita-sarkeesians-second-tropes-vs-women-video-is-back-on-youtube/

After getting flagged into oblivion, the video is back online.

Discuss?
Image
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Matt » 28 May 2013, 16:01

This video does a pretty great job of demonstrating the pervasiveness of this particular trope and discussing some of it's more disturbing implementations.

I have long thought that the TvW videos were over-light on actual analysis (they basically just function as a catalogue of trope usage, rather than a solid academic deconstruction of how and why these tropes are actively harmful), but considering the extent to which the internet at large has managed to turn missing the point into an art form re: these videos, I contend that the audience that needs to be watching these videos most probably couldn't put their big boy pants on long enough to grasp such an analysis without literally turning the internet's message boards into a white-hot ball of searing mad.

So if my biggest complaint is that it's 101 level analysis, well, that's not much of a complaint.

-m

edit: also: hi forumites! I'm not dead, I promise!
Image

I am not angry at you.
User avatar
Alex Steacy
Posts: 2264
Joined: 12 Mar 2004, 22:35
First Video: Beats me! No seriously Graham hits me.
Location: In transit
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Alex Steacy » 28 May 2013, 16:09

Yeah, I feel like its a pretty cursory examination of the topics, but the ludicrous level of backlash is pretty revealing. If I may lift some tweets from @samandfuzzy :

"Looking to critically engage with @femfreq's videos? You've got a lot of options, but sociopathic fuckwittery looks to be a real frontrunner"

"If you look at Anita's videos & say "This is one-sided, where is the discussion"? the answer is: being drowned out by screaming manchildren"
Image
User avatar
AlexanderDitto
Better Than the First Alexander
Posts: 4376
Joined: 28 Nov 2007, 07:41
First Video: Desert Bus 1: The Original!
Location: Cambridge, Massachu~
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby AlexanderDitto » 28 May 2013, 17:19

Matt wrote:So if my biggest complaint is that it's 101 level analysis, well, that's not much of a complaint.


The sad thing is, so, so many people are not ready for anything beyond 101. That should be abundantly clear from the response. I would venture to guess 99.9999% of the people who reported the video did not watch it all the way through. Most of them probably didn't even watch ANY of it.

The video is a clear, measured, well-researched introduction to the problem. How can we even have a "solid academic deconstruction of how and why these tropes are actively harmful" if the response of a vast swath of the people who need to hear this stuff aren't even willing to admit it's a thing that exists? The response is always denial or diversion. Like 50% of the rage is directed toward the fact that she's "censoring" by not allowing assholes to vandalize the comments section of her videos, which is so idiotic and backwards I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.

These videos are great, even if they make me pissed off, but I'd venture to guess she's preaching to the choir to anybody who watches them all the way through.

---

The only games she mentioned that I've played are Psychonauts, To the Moon, and Passage. I play like, Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing. I honestly didn't realize things were this bad. I'm slowly coming to realize that I don't think I think of myself as a "gamer." I don't want to either, if these are the majority of the games that "gamers" are playing and enjoying.

Violent games may not make people violent, but it's still fucking creepy as hell. Then again, I find it incomprehensible that people like gory, violent slasher flicks, so....
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Matt » 28 May 2013, 17:34

AlexanderDitto wrote:The video is a clear, measured, well-researched introduction to the problem. How can we even have a "solid academic deconstruction of how and why these tropes are actively harmful" if the response of a vast swath of the people who need to hear this stuff aren't even willing to admit it's a thing that exists? The response is always denial or diversion. Like 50% of the rage is directed toward the fact that she's "censoring" by not allowing assholes to vandalize the comments section of her videos, which is so idiotic and backwards I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.


That's so much of the problem, eh?

In large swathes of the internet, Ms. Sarkeesian has been labeled a 'radical feminist agitator' (and worse) - but literally nothing she's said in this video (or any other video she's made, for that matter) has been anything approaching controversial, let alone 'radical'. It's the tamest, most base-level analysis that at most expects the viewer to at least acknowledge that feminism as an academic discipline is a valid field of study. how RADICAL.

And yet, for a massively vocal subset of internet users even that concession seems to beyond acceptability.

How can one possibly expect to educate an audience on feminist theory, when that audience doesn't accept that feminist theory has educational merit.

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Matt » 28 May 2013, 17:38

The additional fact that people can't reconcile liking something while also recognizing it as imperfect and occasionally problematic blows me away.

I can enjoy Star Trek but also concede that it had a poorly written script. Can I not also enjoy Mario but concede that its portrayal of peach is problematic?

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
User avatar
King Kool
Quality and Quantity
Posts: 5981
Joined: 28 Jan 2008, 19:22
Location: Rhode Island
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby King Kool » 28 May 2013, 18:12

Ok, I haven't watched either one of these, but this must be said:

If you flag something because you don't like it, either by doing some idiotic mental gymnastics to say it was hate speech or just because you plain don't like it, and you try to suppress someone from saying something, YOU ARE ALREADY WRONG. Suppression of speech is NEVER the answer. The only answer to bad ideas (if they ARE bad ideas) is MORE speech, not less.

God, fuck these people.
Image
a winner is you. - Ash
King Kool, you are wrong. - Graham
King Kool, shut your face. - James
This thread was creepy until KingKool made it AWESOME. - Tombrend
Why this obsession with foam implements? - Metcarfre
User avatar
AlexanderDitto
Better Than the First Alexander
Posts: 4376
Joined: 28 Nov 2007, 07:41
First Video: Desert Bus 1: The Original!
Location: Cambridge, Massachu~
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby AlexanderDitto » 28 May 2013, 18:29

Sarkeesian is not radical or controversial at all. But then to a large swath of the internet, women aren't even worth treating like humans, so insinuating that maybe it'd be nice if they were treated a little better in game narratives is going to be considered radical.

Matt wrote:The additional fact that people can't reconcile liking something while also recognizing it as imperfect and occasionally problematic blows me away.

I can enjoy Star Trek but also concede that it had a poorly written script. Can I not also enjoy Mario but concede that its portrayal of peach is problematic?

-m


Yeah apparently people can't accept that the thing that they love might not be perfect, and that it's OK to love imperfect things, as long as you concede they're not perfect. Otherwise it becomes blind obsession. Which, you know. Not really healthy.

I just can't even deal. Blarg. Makes me hate everything.
User avatar
empath
Posts: 13530
Joined: 28 Nov 2007, 17:20
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: back in the arse end of nowhere

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby empath » 28 May 2013, 18:51

*sigh* Yeah.

On one hand, it's good to see that valid statements survive and are reinstated, but it's the bullshit "guilty until proven innocent" DMCA that permits this...fuck, I can't even think of a good word to describe these backward, unevolved, reactionary {etc. etc. for about five minutes} and their abuse-of-due-process-to-squelch-speech-they-dislike.

Seriously, *I* got one of my LP vids (temporarily) yanked for "copyright infringement"...for MINECRAFT - and not part #1 or part #3, just the MIDDLE part of the 3-part series. So I'm thinking it was just someone pranking a complete stranger for shits and giggles, and not some...{undefinable term} 'bro-gamer' who conducts a evil, mean-spirited campaign of hate, bigotry, prejudice and near-illegal shenanigans just to DENY something uncomfortable exists!


What the ACTUAL fuck is wrong with my gender???


Oh, and philadelphian hugs for our itinerant! :) Kinda sucks that it's THIS that we see you return. :|

I mean seriously, why is there even a debate over this?!?
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby JackSlack » 28 May 2013, 19:20

What everyone else has said, for me. I think this one was a bit better than the first though; some good (though yes, basic) discussion of the effect of the tropes upon the audience and the cultural context that this occurs in. I still think she dwells too much on example lists, but the overall video is stronger.

That said, it took HOW long for video two to come up after video one? Two months? The phrase schedule slip barely begins to cover it. If she's going to go into this much detail (three videos for one trope!), I'm really hoping she picks up the pace.
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby JackSlack » 28 May 2013, 19:24

empath wrote:On one hand, it's good to see that valid statements survive and are reinstated, but it's the bullshit "guilty until proven innocent" DMCA that permits this...fuck, I can't even think of a good word to describe these backward, unevolved, reactionary {etc. etc. for about five minutes} and their abuse-of-due-process-to-squelch-speech-they-dislike.


Much as I dislike the DMCA, the @femfreq twitter account suggests it was taken down on 'community flagging', possibly as hate speech. This is more to do with Youtube policies than the DMCA.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Matt » 28 May 2013, 19:24

5-7 updates a week is... Not typical of professionally produced content.

I fear we may have spoiled the Internet.

I'd rather she take the time necessary to do these well than rush to get them done,

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby JackSlack » 28 May 2013, 19:35

Fair point, but seriously, at this pace, she'll be finished with the series on Wednesday, May the 13th, 2020.
User avatar
AlexanderDitto
Better Than the First Alexander
Posts: 4376
Joined: 28 Nov 2007, 07:41
First Video: Desert Bus 1: The Original!
Location: Cambridge, Massachu~
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby AlexanderDitto » 28 May 2013, 19:52

JackSlack wrote:Fair point, but seriously, at this pace, she'll be finished with the series on Wednesday, May the 13th, 2020.


Keep in mind that she may still be dealing with Kickstarter responsibilities (mailing out stickers, postcards [with handwritten messages], dealing with the money, etc) as well as constant, perpetual harassment (I would not be surprised if her website were attacked regularly).

Also, keep in mind, she's doing extensive research on this. Imagine YOU were tasked with compiling a list of every video game (or, OK, let's say every MAJOR video game) that used the damsel in distress trope. How would you go about doing it? How long do you think it would take you to make sure you had checked enough games, compiled a list that contains the strongest examples and hasn't left anything out?

I can't even imagine. Bluh. I would not want to do that.
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby JackSlack » 28 May 2013, 19:53

Ico's an intriguing example she offers. I don't disagree with its inclusion, but I feel you could do a whole video on the complicated nature of its gender portrayals. (Spoilers for Ico follow)

The game begins with images of a young boy, in chains, being locked in a stone casket to die. We later see a young girl imprisoned in a cage, suspended high above the ground, from which the boy rescues her. The boy then drags her along, and she in turn opens the doors that trap them both. (There is, however, an annoying decision here: It's portrayed as her doing it on instinct, rather than deliberately. That's flatly misogynist, and it irritates me.) Meanwhile, creatures try to capture her over and over again, which the boy can defeat... most efficiently by bringing her to a door to let her destroy them with magic. At the end, she is captured and in some fashion killed... by a female antagonist who is tremendously empowered... and whom you then kill. At which point the girl comes back from the dead and saves your life.

And then she comes back from the dead completely.


There's plenty there to merit its inclusion, but heck, it's a complicated example.
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby JackSlack » 28 May 2013, 19:55

AlexanderDitto wrote:I can't even imagine. Bluh. I would not want to do that.


No question. (And she is indeed mailing that stuff out; I have one of those postcards and some of those stickers.)

Still. 2020. If she could get it down to one a month, it'd instead be 2015. Surely one a month is doable. Surely.
User avatar
Pikachaos
Posts: 243
Joined: 01 Dec 2010, 15:03
First Video: Ballad of the Fanboy
Location: Minnesota

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Pikachaos » 28 May 2013, 20:36

I was going to say a bunch of stuff, but a got too angry and overwhelmed at one comment that I read on the website that I can't even form thoughts right now. I may come back to comment later.
DeviantArt - Cyberguardian
Twitter - Pikachaos
Tumblr - http://worldnegativeone.tumblr.com/

"Y-you'll have to kill your underwear." -Ghost Graham
User avatar
MattAn
Posts: 1233
Joined: 15 Sep 2009, 13:07
First Video: You're Kidding
Location: Perth, Ausphailia
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby MattAn » 28 May 2013, 21:40

...I'm going to be that guy, aren't I? Welp, guess so!

I would much prefer *literally anyone else ever* to present this, rather than Ms. Sarkeesian. The videos are so far apart, it's blatantly all been recorded months ago, even down to exact same clothing, as if it was all done at once.

Watching these have only cemented my view. Anita Sarkessian: Deceit & Censorship and I spoke out to Feminist Frequency / Anita Sarkeesian In Person.

Please, for the love of all things holy, at least watch that second one. It is a video of a woman who spoke out against Anita at a live Q&A, with logical rebuttal, and has had to cover her face to protect her college job and course.

There's also a majority of the games she mentions.. Where she seems to neglect to even look at the credits. *Women* are also lead devs and sometimes even artists that create some of this stuff. Anita had a past video tearing a game like Bayonetta apart.. Without noting any narrative context.. Or context in general. Hell, Suda51's games are pretty much always sexualised and/or gratuitous.. But they're done within narrative context.

...Oh, and as soon as I hear the words "male power fantasy" to label anything that is even remotely not like the trope or whatever.. I stop taking anything said seriously. It's *incredibly* dumb. Or need I mention Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, for example. Volgin molests/sexually harasses Big Boss, thrashes the absolute shit out of him.. And this is supposed to be different, or a "male power fantasy"?

I've spoken to many people about this stuff, I know quite a few women who wholeheartedly disagree with every single word and action Ms. Sarkeesian has said and done. There, sadly, are certain women who firmly believe that "feminism" is solely about women. That gender is male or female. Okay. Sure. So we'll just forget the LGBTQ community, mm? My ex-girlfriend (who people would probably know if you've been involved with the Desert Bus chat for the last.. 2 years?) is bi-sexual and works for her local pride centre. She's a feminist and it really irritates her that there are these radical feminist women who seem to think that every single male is evil.

....Sigh. I'll just deploy the flame shield and let you all continue on. Obviously no one is allowed to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian and actually have logical, educated reasons for why. Nope, suddenly everyone who disagrees is part of some evil collective of shitheads. Thanks, guys! Really appreciate that.
Image
User avatar
Pikachaos
Posts: 243
Joined: 01 Dec 2010, 15:03
First Video: Ballad of the Fanboy
Location: Minnesota

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Pikachaos » 28 May 2013, 22:14

MattAn wrote:...I'm going to be that guy, aren't I? Welp, guess so!

I would much prefer *literally anyone else ever* to present this, rather than Ms. Sarkeesian. The videos are so far apart, it's blatantly all been recorded months ago, even down to exact same clothing, as if it was all done at once.

Watching these have only cemented my view. Anita Sarkessian: Deceit & Censorship and I spoke out to Feminist Frequency / Anita Sarkeesian In Person.

Please, for the love of all things holy, at least watch that second one. It is a video of a woman who spoke out against Anita at a live Q&A, with logical rebuttal, and has had to cover her face to protect her college job and course.

There's also a majority of the games she mentions.. Where she seems to neglect to even look at the credits. *Women* are also lead devs and sometimes even artists that create some of this stuff. Anita had a past video tearing a game like Bayonetta apart.. Without noting any narrative context.. Or context in general. Hell, Suda51's games are pretty much always sexualised and/or gratuitous.. But they're done within narrative context.

...Oh, and as soon as I hear the words "male power fantasy" to label anything that is even remotely not like the trope or whatever.. I stop taking anything said seriously. It's *incredibly* dumb. Or need I mention Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, for example. Volgin molests/sexually harasses Big Boss, thrashes the absolute shit out of him.. And this is supposed to be different, or a "male power fantasy"?

I've spoken to many people about this stuff, I know quite a few women who wholeheartedly disagree with every single word and action Ms. Sarkeesian has said and done. There, sadly, are certain women who firmly believe that "feminism" is solely about women. That gender is male or female. Okay. Sure. So we'll just forget the LGBTQ community, mm? My ex-girlfriend (who people would probably know if you've been involved with the Desert Bus chat for the last.. 2 years?) is bi-sexual and works for her local pride centre. She's a feminist and it really irritates her that there are these radical feminist women who seem to think that every single male is evil.

....Sigh. I'll just deploy the flame shield and let you all continue on. Obviously no one is allowed to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian and actually have logical, educated reasons for why. Nope, suddenly everyone who disagrees is part of some evil collective of shitheads. Thanks, guys! Really appreciate that.


I actually have no problem with most of what you said regarding this video. I had heard the same complaints about this woman.
So please don't blame me for something I haven't done yet. :/
There are a lot of things to say about feminists who see men as the "enemy", but I really, REALLY want to stress the fact that feminism as a whole is not about that, and the actions of a few do not define us as a whole.
The video does point out a lot of real issues, so don't let the things that are disagreeable overshadow the things that are true.


I personally think we need to start accepting labeling of sexism as a discussion. More than often I see feminists fighting against other feminists and calling each other out for stating something is sexist or not sexist, and when their statement is challenged they demonize the other person. These should be discussions, where we unify.
DeviantArt - Cyberguardian
Twitter - Pikachaos
Tumblr - http://worldnegativeone.tumblr.com/

"Y-you'll have to kill your underwear." -Ghost Graham
User avatar
MattAn
Posts: 1233
Joined: 15 Sep 2009, 13:07
First Video: You're Kidding
Location: Perth, Ausphailia
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby MattAn » 28 May 2013, 22:30

Pikachaos wrote:I actually have no problem with most of what you said regarding this video. I had heard the same complaints about this woman.
So please don't blame me for something I haven't done yet. :/
There are a lot of things to say about feminists who see men as the "enemy", but I really, REALLY want to stress the fact that feminism as a whole is not about that, and the actions of a few do not define us as a whole.
The video does point out a lot of real issues, so don't let the things that are disagreeable overshadow the things that are true.

I personally think we need to start accepting labeling of sexism as a discussion. More than often I see feminists fighting against other feminists and calling each other out for stating something is sexist or not sexist, and when their statement is challenged they demonize the other person. These should be discussions, where we unify.

Thanks, Pika! :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying "There's literally nothing wrong in games!" I'd be talking complete and utter bullshit. I do agree there needs to be a discussion. I hate that there's this.. "Army" assaulting her. I'd rather have a logical debate about it. But here's the kicker, Anita won't accept any opposing view. At all. It's her classroom and what she says is literally 100% correct and you jus' gon' hav'ta deal wit' dat, suuuun. Or something.

As an example, I went to the venturebeat.com article Alex linked in OP.. And I did something I swear to never do. I read through the comments. I found some interesting info written by a "Matty" (not me, by the way, random guy!)

Don't kid yourself into thinking this is abunch of basement dwelling angry virgins or even about video games.

It's because people dislike Anita because she's a huge proponent of censorship. It's ironic that now she herself is being censored by the same tools she uses.

People dislike her because she does poor research, is insulting and uses censorship to antagonize those who disagree. I used to be apart of her facebook group. When I made a mild but thoughtful comment disagreeing with one of the viewpoints in one of her prior videos, my comment was deleted and I was blocked from ever posting again. Don't think this was ever any flaming or derogatory remarks. It was just simply something she disagreed with and so I was dispelled from her classroom.

Just a few examples from that video alone: She criticised Dinosaur Planet's transformation into Starfox, yet failed to make mention of or realize the original game centered around Krystal saving a princess, making it appear as if she was oddly praising a damsel in distress game.

She completely misunderstands the storytelling trope of when a protagonist is imprisoned, claiming it's a technique to display how cunning a male is, when that type of storytelling device is actually about how a protagonist is broken down and manages to survive.

She appears to be completely oblivious to Double Dragon being a homage to old kung-fu movies. She calls it regressive crap and takes it for face value without looking into why its story was so simple (hardware limitations). She also appears to be completely oblivious to the ending where the kidnapped girl smashes the main villains balls with a punch.

Flashing 70 game clips isn't really 'referencing" them imo, and as far as I know no one can access her research material unless you were within her $25 or more donor tier on kickstarter. Look it up.


Now.. If this is to be believed at all, which trust me, I take most things with a grain of salt (meaning I don't give a shit until it's proven as truth).. But come on. Really? Narrative context changes *everything*. It's when the words "male power fantasy" are uttered.. I just.. I can't.. I just can't take anything said afterwards seriously. I mean.. What is her intended solution? To demand game developers create games by committee from now on, constantly changing it because a group of people are grabbing pitchforks and torches? How about Halo 4's borderline creepy slashfic romance plot between Master Chief and Cortana (a relationship which NEVER EXISTED in the Bungie universe.. Hell, Bungie wanted to end on Halo 2, Microsoft forced 3 out of them and ODST/Reach was literally Bungie wanting to move on to other aspects of the universe).. BioShock Infinite literally had you "rescuing the girl", but it did so in such a way that it was respectful and Elizabeth was a competent, strong character. The narrative backed it up.

I mean.. Final Fantasy XIII, for the supposed shitstorm it's received in the past by... Seemingly a very vocal minority, because quite a lot of people really enjoyed it and it was rather positively reviewed.. Lightning and Fang are both strong, confident, sometimes flawed characters.. But they worked their problems out by themselves, and with help from their friends. Vanille spent the majority of the damn game tortured with guilt that she betrayed/lied to her friend (Fang), dragged everyone else into the whole l'Cie mess, was the sole cause of Sazh's son, Dajh, and Snow's fiancée, Serah, being branded.. She had to deal with that and it was a character progression.

Anyway.. Thanks again, Pika, for the response and staying classy, San Diego. :D

EDIT: ...Y'know, does anyone actually realise there's also a term for sexism against men (which *does* exist, especially all the body image and "men must be model gladiators hurrrrr" crap). It's misandry. Look it up. The fact that misogynist is a word that doesn't have a red underline in spell-check.. But misandry does? Means there's definitely not clear equality. BOTH genders (and because it ain't binary, trans* too) need to stop, take a breath, and start everything over again. Quit the hatred and fighting. Just stop.
Last edited by MattAn on 28 May 2013, 22:48, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby phlip » 28 May 2013, 22:38

MattAn wrote:....Sigh. I'll just deploy the flame shield and let you all continue on. Obviously no one is allowed to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian and actually have logical, educated reasons for why. Nope, suddenly everyone who disagrees is part of some evil collective of shitheads. Thanks, guys! Really appreciate that.

... I thought you were being quite reasonable and measured until you got to this bit. I defy you to point to any person here who has said that it's impossible to disagree with these videos at all. There's a lot of vitriol and eye-rolling towards people who make terrible criticisms of the videos (particularly ones that make it clear the criticiser hasn't actually seen the videos, and is complaining purely out of privilege distress)... but not towards people who actually have a point of some sort to make.

So, to your actual points...


I'm at work, so I haven't looked at the videos you linked (or the actual TvW video) yet... I'll do that when I get home. But I skimmed through the "Deceit & Censorship" video very very quickly, and heard two points: (a) She made a lot of money on her Kickstarter project, and has only so far made 2 videos, and (b) She's turned off comments on her YouTube video, which is Censorship!!!
Both of these positions are complete bullshit, for reasons that are ridiculously obvious and have been gone over so many times in the past, so I'm hoping there's something of substance in the rest of this video and the other one for when I check it out later.

MattAn wrote:There's also a majority of the games she mentions.. Where she seems to neglect to even look at the credits. *Women* are also lead devs and sometimes even artists that create some of this stuff.

The fact that some women are involved in some of the games that are being made does not defend them. Women are members of society too, and can pick up the more problematic memes from society just as readily as men can. It's entirely possible for women to me misogynist. And even if they're not, even if they're Feminist Jesus with no problematic ideas whatsoever, they can still be argued down by the other members of the team, who outnumber them.
I won't speak to your specific examples, because I haven't actually played Bayonetta, or MGS:Snake Eater, or a Suda51 game (well, I played No More Heroes, but too long ago to remember any specifics), so I can't really hold a debate on those points. Certainly not when the only argument is "But there's context!" which I can't really argue against without knowing what the context is...

"Quite a few women agree with me!" is the feminist equivalent of "Some of my best friends are black!"... doesn't actually prove anything at all. See previous point re: plenty of women being misogynist. Pick any position at all, you'll be able to find someone who supports it - particularly one as widly held as anti-feminism.

MattAn wrote:There, sadly, are certain women who firmly believe that "feminism" is solely about women. That gender is male or female. Okay. Sure. So we'll just forget the LGBTQ community, mm? My ex-girlfriend (who people would probably know if you've been involved with the Desert Bus chat for the last.. 2 years?) is bi-sexual and works for her local pride centre. She's a feminist and it really irritates her that there are these radical feminist women who seem to think that every single male is evil.

You're right that there are some women who believe that feminism is purely about women. I agree with you that this is a bad thing. Patriarchy and gender roles hurt both sides, and the fight of feminism should be to eliminate them to the benefit of everyone (men, by loosening up some societal restrictions; women, by bringing them up to equal footing; the genderqueer and trans* get a bit of a push towards being more accepted, though not 100%; and other members of the QUILTBAG umbrella get a minor six-degrees-of-not-being-oppressed benefit too). On the other hand, they do hurt women more than men, so it's reasonable (indeed expected) that eliminating them will involve doing a lot more to support women than supporting men, and feminism will naturally be primarily focused on that. On the other other hand, going so far down that road as to say that women should be promoted at the detriment of men (except where that "detriment" is merely the loss of privilege, or a direct result of men no longer being in a position of power), or aiming to have women end up above men, rather than on equal footing (except in cases of aiming high with the hope of settling or compromising on equality as a middle ground) are problematic, and anti-male radfems and TERFs definitely give the movement a bad name. Luckily they're few and far between, these days... unluckily, they can be pretty vocal sometimes. On the other other other hand, people can easily be privilege-blind, and see the status quo as much closer to equality than it truly is... and then view any move towards equality as an overcorrection... this should not be confused for actual concerns about going too far, and should be pointed out for the misogyny it is.

All of that said... and to bring this rambling tangent back on-topic... I haven't really seen anything to support the claim that Anita Sarkessian is one of these anti-male radical feminists... and indeed the idea that men are harmed by this whole deal too is brought up in TvW.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
MattAn
Posts: 1233
Joined: 15 Sep 2009, 13:07
First Video: You're Kidding
Location: Perth, Ausphailia
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby MattAn » 28 May 2013, 22:51

@phlip; Granted, I was rather... I already felt drained and defeated at the end of my post. I expected to be attacked. Because every time a male even attempts to question things, it's being sexist (no, seriously, it's happened).

So.. I was initially surprised to see Pika's rather positive/respectful response, and your honest, fair response as well. I *expected* hate.
Image
User avatar
Pikachaos
Posts: 243
Joined: 01 Dec 2010, 15:03
First Video: Ballad of the Fanboy
Location: Minnesota

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby Pikachaos » 28 May 2013, 23:02

Let's remember we all hold LRR forums to a much higher standard than other places. :3

Basically what I'm getting out of what you two are saying is that we have to stop making feminism a war. I've had this conversation a couple times, but it basically revolves around the creation of the "men's rights movement."
This is a tricky situation, because this is the pushback from men, feeling alienated and victimized by feminism, which is as ironic as it is silly as it is understandable. Feminism should be working with men for equality, and men should be working with women for equality. Both sides need to stop making this a war so that people who want the same things can work together, instead of fight each other. [I mean some Men's Rights activists are just ASSHOLES] But excluding those poor souls, I know a lot of men who are men's rights activists because they honestly don't understand why we need to be supporting women more than men, because we should be striving for equality right? But we need to support women more to get them to the point of men, AND we can support men as well.
[I'm getting rambly]
Anyway blah blah blah we need to work together and need to stop getting pushback from both sides, because it just holds us back from the main goal, equality and solving both women and men's societal problems.
DeviantArt - Cyberguardian
Twitter - Pikachaos
Tumblr - http://worldnegativeone.tumblr.com/

"Y-you'll have to kill your underwear." -Ghost Graham
User avatar
MattAn
Posts: 1233
Joined: 15 Sep 2009, 13:07
First Video: You're Kidding
Location: Perth, Ausphailia
Contact:

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby MattAn » 28 May 2013, 23:12

Pikachaos wrote:Let's remember we all hold LRR forums to a much higher standard than other places. :3

Basically what I'm getting out of what you two are saying is that we have to stop making feminism a war. I've had this conversation a couple times, but it basically revolves around the creation of the "men's rights movement."
This is a tricky situation, because this is the pushback from men, feeling alienated and victimized by feminism, which is as ironic as it is silly as it is understandable. Feminism should be working with men for equality, and men should be working with women for equality. Both sides need to stop making this a war so that people who want the same things can work together, instead of fight each other. [I mean some Men's Rights activists are just ASSHOLES] But excluding those poor souls, I know a lot of men who are men's rights activists because they honestly don't understand why we need to be supporting women more than men, because we should be striving for equality right? But we need to support women more to get them to the point of men, AND we can support men as well.
[I'm getting rambly]
Anyway blah blah blah we need to work together and need to stop getting pushback from both sides, because it just holds us back from the main goal, equality and solving both women and men's societal problems.

...I was reading what you were saying.. But the POW! kept distracting me.. It's like.. The explosion is going *into the text*. I'd like to think the explosion is full of rainbows, flowers and aloe vera. Y'know, fun stuff!

...Wait.. I had a point here somewhere.. Right! The thing you said! Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying, thank you! I mean.. I've been labelled a "Men's Rights Advocate" before, mainly in a Twitter argument (lol). I merely questioned the extreme of feminism being solely about women. Men are absolutely feminine! Hell, I'm certainly not masculine or remotely "manly".. I can't stand either extreme. Both sides are being insensitive, rude and insulting. We all need to be Season 3 Black Books Manny. Little Book of Calm. EVERYONE EAT YOUR LITTLE BOOK OF CALM.

I should add, this comes from a very personal place.. Being called an "MRA".. Genuinely felt like a kick in the teeth. Raised from 18 months old by a single mother, my father literally walked on us, has *barely* spoken to me. I last saw him when I was.. 15-16? Maybe spoke to him over the phone when I was.. 17? I'm 25 next month. I haven't spoken to him. Mostly by choice, actually, but he hasn't exactly made any effort. I have a very low tolerance for men being arseholes in general, but especially to women. I'm not critiquing/judging Anita Sarkeesian as being a woman. I'm critiquing solely on her attitude and personality as a human being.. And.. I just don't like what she represents. She isn't the answer. She's only contributing to the problem (lack of proper research mostly). Society needs to resolve this. Maturely. Also, poop and butts. I'm an adult.
Image
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Tropes vs Women Ep.2

Postby phlip » 29 May 2013, 00:07

MattAn wrote:@phlip; Granted, I was rather... I already felt drained and defeated at the end of my post. I expected to be attacked. Because every time a male even attempts to question things, it's being sexist (no, seriously, it's happened).

That's entirely fair. The Internet is a terrible place, and sexism/feminism is one of those hot-button issues where it's hard to have any opinion without being torn apart by someone.

Though it's important to keep in mind that the quantity of shit that one typically receives for being a vocal male moderate feminist from the radfems pales in comparison to the amount of shit one often receives for being a vocal female feminist of any stripe from male nerds (especially gamers) and the MRA mob. By a large margin.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]

Return to “Video Games”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests