Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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SilPho
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 10 Apr 2013, 22:20

Fair point there, phlip. That's a key demonstration of why we tend to avoid commenting on cards before their official release; unfamiliarity.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 15 Apr 2013, 02:16

so i had a spat with somebody while playing on cockatrice last night. i had strangleroot geist out with no counters on him. he hit it with -1-1 and then i brought him back as a 3/2 and he tried to argue that undying wont trigger if toughness was reduced to 0. im pretty sure thats bullshit and he is getting confused with something like indestructible. by my understanding the following happens.

he plays a golgari charm for -1-1 and geist is now 1/0
state based actions are checked and geist "dies" from having 0 toughness.
but he still dies i.e. goes to grave so undying should still trigger right.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 15 Apr 2013, 05:23

Right. It's a trigger on the Geist going from the battlefield to the graveyard, and it'll trigger regardless of why it goes there. This is different to indestructible or regeneration, which only affect "destroy" effects (ie things that explicitly say "destroy", or lethal damage), and not having 0 toughness.

And, once again, we come across a situation where Undying and Regenerate are completely different, even though they're such similar effects at a high level...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 15 Apr 2013, 15:48

while on the subject of undying i just want to double check i have my numbers right with the following little combo

on board is a slitherhead and a gyre sage and i play a strangleroot gesit so i have this

slither > 1/1
sage > 2/3 1 counter
geist 2/1

i play a golgari charm for -1-1

slither > 0/0
sage > 1/2 with 1 counter
geist 1/0

slither and geist die from SBA

geist comes back in with a counter but still getting -1-1 so

geist 2/1 with 1 counter
sage 2/3 with 2 counter

scavenge the slither to sage and then play a hunger of the howlpack so i would now have

geist 2/1 with 1 counter
sage 6/7 with 6 counters

and at the end of the turn the sage becomes 7/8 and the geist 3/2

which is not a bad position for end of turn 4 IMO.

im pretty sure my math is correct here but want to be sure before i build the deck for FNM this week.
Last edited by Lemegeton on 16 Apr 2013, 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
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phlip
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 15 Apr 2013, 16:03

Mostly right. Only thing is that the -1/-1 mode of Golgari Charm only affects the creatures on the board at the time, so the Strangleroot Geist will return as a full 3/2.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 16 Apr 2013, 00:20

ah that was one part i was not completely sure on. thanks dude
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Apr 2013, 04:15

4 Commander questions.

First, I'm assuming I can play a transform card that changes color in a deck that doesn't include the second color, if none of the second color's mana symbols are on the card. For example, I could use a Loyal Cathar in a deck that includes white but doesn't include black in the Commander. Unhallowed Cathar is black, but nowhere on the front or back of the card are black mana symbols. So, is he valid in a white-based Commander deck?

Second, I'm assuming I can't use something with Phyrexian mana in a Commander deck that doesn't include that color. For example, I couldn't use a Slash Panther in a non-red deck. Is this correct?

Third, can I use a flip card as my Commander if the flipped part is legendary but the part cast is not? Can I use Autumn-Tail, Kitsune Sage as my Commander, even though Kitsune Mystic is what is cast, and is not legendary?

Fourth, what's the exact ruling on the colors of cards you can use? I'm specifically thinking of cards that have an activated ability that has a color not in the casting cost. Can I put white cards in a Daughter of Autumn deck, or only green cards? Do only colorless cards go in Bosh, the Iron Golem and Memnarch decks, or can I put in red and blue cards, respectively?
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Rootbreaker
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Rootbreaker » 16 Apr 2013, 04:29

1. No, unfortunately you can't do that. On the back side of Loyal Cathar is a black color indicator, which means that the card has a black and white color identity. You can't play it in a mono-white commander deck.

2. That's correct. A red phryexian mana symbol gives the slash panther a red color identity.

3. No, the card has to be a legendary creature in the command zone, and only the unflipped side is active in the command zone. It might seem like this contradicts the color indicator mattering on the back side, but there's a special rule for that.

4. Daughter of Autumn has a white and green color identity, so if you use her as your commander, you can play both white and green cards in it. Similarly, you can use red cards in a Bosh deck, and blue cards in a Memnarch deck.

However, as commander is a casual format, it's very possible that you could get your local playgroup to bend the rules for you. It doesn't hurt to ask.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 16 Apr 2013, 04:39

just to elaborate on point 4. if the card has a mana symbol anywhere on it that is not part of the commanders color identity then its out. for example a spider spawning that costs 2G to cast but has a swamp symbol in the flashback cost is not allowed in a daughter of autumn deck
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Apr 2013, 07:19

Yeah. I know Commander is casual, and house rules and exceptions can be made, but I just wanted to be sure of the "official" rules before I lobbied for these exceptions. Thanks for the clarifications. :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 16 Apr 2013, 15:05

ok so related to the counter shenanigans above what would happen if i swapped the slitherhead for a young wolf. e.g. i play the charm and undying triggers on both the wolf and the geist. they both come back as a 2/2 and a 3/2 , each of which can evolve the sage by themselves but no they enter together im not sure what happens. i understand evolve checks for a possible trigger when they each enter but which will it check first
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drecon » 16 Apr 2013, 15:11

It depends on which trigger you put on the stack first.

First both creatures enter the battlefield. You have two triggers and put them on the stack in any order you choose.

Once the ability resolves, it checks the power of the creature that came into play and sees if it is still higher than the Evolve creature's power.

If you put Geist's trigger on the stack first, then the Wolf's, the Wolf will resolve first, making the Sage a 2/3. Then the Geist's trigger resolves and evolves the Sage into a 3/4.

If you stack them the other way around, the Geist's trigger goes first, the Sage sees that its power is higher and evolves into a 2/3. Then the Wolf's triggers and Sage checks the power. Now it sees that the Wolf's power is not greater than the Sage's, so evolve does not happen.

Clear?
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Lemegeton
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 16 Apr 2013, 15:15

thets exactly what i was hoping you would say. its all up to me :D
thanks dude
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 17 Apr 2013, 01:25

man i am keeping you experts busy these days. here is another one.

if i have a corpsejack menace out and then i use bioshift to move counters between creatures do i get to dump double the counters i removed on the target. e.g. move 5 +1+1 counters from a gyre sage and then dump 10 onto a primordial hydra. ?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drecon » 17 Apr 2013, 02:49

I'm pretty sure that's how it works. The counters are removed from one creature and put onto another creature.

On this particular one I'm not 100% though, I'm not a judge.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 17 Apr 2013, 04:27

I can't put this better than Gatherer:
To move a counter from one creature to another, the counter is removed from the first creature and placed on the second. Any abilities that care about a counter being removed or placed on a creature will apply.
So yes, it interacts with Corpsejack Menace in exactly the way you are hoping.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 17 Apr 2013, 05:14

phlip wrote:I can't put this better than Gatherer:
To move a counter from one creature to another, the counter is removed from the first creature and placed on the second. Any abilities that care about a counter being removed or placed on a creature will apply.
So yes, it interacts with Corpsejack Menace in exactly the way you are hoping.


:lol: :lol: Counter Shenanigans Ahoy!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 17 Apr 2013, 12:43

Guess Who :D :D :D

ok so my current deck has some pretty big creatures and so the question of assigning combat damage comes up when say a 24/24 hydra is blocked by like 6 dudes. i have checked the official ruling but its this part im not sure on

from 510.1c dealing with multiple blockers to 1 attacker.

This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage

i just want to check i have this right. so my understanding is i can decide who gets the damage but each damage assignment must be lethal but do i have to assign damage to their biggest guys in order or can i do it anyway i want.
so for example i swing with a 24/24 w trample
they block with 2 5/5 creatures 3 2/2 creatures and 3 1/1 creatures. can i assign lethal dmg to the 1/1s first (e.g exalted guys) and then assign lethal to the 5/5s and ignore the 2/2s.

im kinda shocked that after a year of playing i still have trouble with this bit
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Apr 2013, 13:12

You can't just ignore the 2/2s. You assign damage to the creatures until either A: You run out of damage to deal, or B: All creatures are dealt lethal. Without trample, anything left over just doesn't happen. With Trample, any damage left over after doing lethal to all of the blockers is dealt to the blocking player.

But you can do it in any order you choose. You decide what creatures get dealt damage first. So you can order 1 2/2, 1 5/5, 2 1/1s, 1 5/5, etc if you want to be the order damage is done in.

I do feel like asking myself now though, does Deathtouch against multiple blockers work as well as I think? As in, can you simply assign 1 damage to each blocker, killing them all with deathtouch?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Rootbreaker » 17 Apr 2013, 13:19

Correction: without trample, extra damage is dealt to one (or more) of the blocking creatures. A 5/5 lifelink that's blocked by two 2/2 creatures will still gain you 5 life, even though it only needs 4 damage to kill both blockers and the 5th damage won't be dealt to the defending player. You will (most likely) deal 3 damage to one 2/2 and 2 damage to the other.

Also note that you don't have to deal damage to every blocker if you don't want to. You can overkill the first creatures instead. If they block your 10/10 with a boros reckoner and a thragtusk, you can put the thragtusk first and deal all 10 damage to it, so that you don't trigger the reckoner's ability and your 10/10 lives.

Yes, deathtouch works very well against multiple blockers. You can do that. It works even better with trample, allowing you to deal 1 damage to each blocker and the rest to the player or planeswalker that creature was attacking.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Apr 2013, 13:23

I thought it did, but wanted to make sure based on the ruling. But yea, I'd misspoke there on the damage without trample.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 17 Apr 2013, 13:39

ok so what happens if all his blockers have 1st strike from say stromkirk captain.
does he assign his blocking damage first and then i assign whats left.

so i swing with a 10/10 with trample and he blocks with 2 3/3s with 1st strike. they will each hit me for 3 so essentially i am attacking with a 10/4 and then can kill them with 3 dmg each and then 4 to player

and while on the subject if he has two 3/3s and a 4/4 all with 1st strike then i never assign any dmg and my guy is dead
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Rootbreaker » 18 Apr 2013, 05:53

Yes, the first strike damage happens first, marking 6 damage on your 10/10 (which doesn't actually reduce toughness).

Then your creature can deal 3 to each 3/3 and 4 to the defending player.

And yes, if your opponent blocks your 10/10 with 10 power of first strike creatures, your 10/10 will die before it gets to assign or deal damage.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 20 Apr 2013, 02:58

Kapol wrote:You can't just ignore the 2/2s


You will need to include the 2/2s in the damage assignment list, but you don't actually have to deal damage to them if you'd rather not. If you don't damage them then you obviously can't attack a player.

Kapol wrote:Without trample, anything left over just doesn't happen


You can't have damage left over. A 2/2 creature must assign all 2 of its power to the blocking creature(s) and/or player.


Damage assignment among large numbers of creatures can get confusing. But just think of it like a queue. You have to deal with each creature in the queue in order before you can move on to the next one. All damage must be assigned, and you don't have to move on to the next creature(s) if you don't want to.

This can be a confusing area of the rules, so don't hesitate to ask again if you're unsure.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ZePancakes » 23 Apr 2013, 16:20

Quick Q, with Bloodrush, can I go into Declare attackers, pick two or whatever as attacking and buff using Bloodrush on said step? Or are not truely considered attacking until they go into declare blockers?

Eg. Got a Wandering wolf, declare, buff with bloodrush, he can't block due to Wolf's high power (considering he has smaller critters).
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