Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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AdmiralMemo
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 29 Aug 2014, 08:05

Is a morphed creature as the 2/2 face-down and its unmorphed state "the same" creature, especially for targeting purposes?

For example, if I Doom Blade a 2/2 face-down creature and, in response, my opponent morphs it so it becomes Akroma, does Akroma die? I would think that if it's "the same" creature, then yes, but if the game counts the morphed/unmorphed states as different creatures, then no.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 29 Aug 2014, 09:41

They're the same creature... being face-down is just a status change, the same as being tapped/untapped, or a double-faced card being transformed... it's the same creature, targets stay targeted, auras stay attached, it doesn't re-become summoning-sick, you don't get ETB effects... etc.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 29 Aug 2014, 10:23

Oh wow, auras stay attached? Good to know!
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby jkefka » 31 Aug 2014, 04:59

Note about that: What happens if you hit a morph creature with an "Echoing" spell like Echoing Courage? Do all face-down Morphs have the same name?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 31 Aug 2014, 06:11

They do not have the same name.

Morphed creatures have no name at all, and you can't have the same name if don't have one to begin with. There isn't explicitly a rule to back this up, but there is the official gatherer ruling for Maelstrom Pulse: "A face-down creature has no name, so it doesn't have the same name as anything else".
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Chris_Gonzalez » 01 Sep 2014, 21:31

If I put Phyrexian Revoker on the battlefield and name "Torch Fiend", can the owner of Torch Fiend sac it before the summoning resolves to target a different artifact?

(This is coming from a relative newby who has vague awareness of this thing called "the stack", in that I know it's a thing that exists.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 01 Sep 2014, 21:39

Nope. You cast the Revoker, and it goes on the stack. You don't choose the card yet. You and you opponent can respond. Assuming nothing happens, or things do happen but they're done, the Revoker resolves. You name a card. That card doesn't work any more.

There is no point when the Phyrexian Revoker (or Pithing Needle) is on the battlefield without it turning off a card, and there is no point when it's not on the battlefield where it can be targeted by Torch Fiend.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 01 Sep 2014, 21:47

That said, if you cast it and it hasn't resolved yet (so it's still on the stack and hasn't hit the battlefield yet), your opponent can activate Torch Fiend while it's still on the stack if they're confident you're going to name Torch Fiend. So in between when you cast it and when it hits the battlefield, both you and your opponent have a chance to do something at instant-speed in response. But if they do sacrifice the Torch Fiend to it's effect, when the Revoker does resolve, you're able to name something else. You don't have to tell your opponent what you're planning on naming, as a note, until after it's resolved. Like Korvys said. I just figured that it's worth mentioning there is a chance between when you cast it and when it hits the battlefield for your opponent to use the Torch Fiend.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 01 Sep 2014, 22:59

Just to make sure this part is claer: If you do activate the Torch Fiend while the Phyrexian Revoker is on the stack (so, before a card is named) then you can't target the Revoker but any other artifact is fair game.

For those that are interested, advanced rule coming up:
Also, with cards such as this you are not allowed to "Jedi Mind Trick" your opponent. If you cast a Revoker or similar card and say in advance what you are going to name you have to stick with what you say. You can't say "Cast Phyrexian Revoker, naming Elvish Mystic. Resolves? Ok, actually I'll name Torch Fiend".

If, however, you do announce the card you intend to name too early and your opponents responds and changes something about the game state then you are actually allowed to change the card that you named.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Chris_Gonzalez » 03 Sep 2014, 05:19

Awesome. Thanks for the answers, guys!
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 07 Sep 2014, 08:47

do amrou seekers and skirk shaman have intimidate
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 07 Sep 2014, 13:46

No. You can tell this by looking at the Oracle text for these creatures: Amrou Seekers & Skirk Shaman.

The reason they do not have Intimidate even though their abilities operate in almost exactly the same way is because they were printed before Intimidate was added to the rules. Updating cards like this to officially say Intimidate (according to Oracle text) would slightly change the way the cards work.

Consider the card Quickchange. If you change a creature with Intimidate to be green, then it can only be blocked by green or artifact creatures. But if you Quickchange an Amrou Seekers then it is still only blockable by white or artifact creatures.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Under_Score » 07 Sep 2014, 14:48

So... I had a bit of an interaction during last night's FanDraft that I wasn't sure about. I had Garruk, Apex Predator and my opponent had Scuttling Doom Engine. I was at exactly 6 life, so my question is, if I had used Garruk's -3 ability to kill the Doom Engine, would I have gained the life from the Garruk ability before I took 6 from the Doom Engine's ability, or would I have died from the damage before I gained the life?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 07 Sep 2014, 15:06

You would have gained the live, then took the damage.

As for the why: Garruk's ability kills SDE. SDE's ability will trigger. But as the gaining of life is part of Garruk's ability, it has to finish resolving before the ability can go on the stack. So it'll finish, you'll gain the life, and then SDE's ability will go on the stack. This also gives you the chance to respond to the trigger if you want/need to.

It's similar to how you can steal undying creatures and similar effects using Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's ultimate.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 07 Sep 2014, 15:25

Not a judge so I'm curious. Does the period in that ability not turn it into two separate ones like in cases of O-Ring or Banisher Priest?

Destroy target creature(stop) You gain life equal to its toughness(stop)

Is it that O-ring Banisher Priest are looking for two different trigger events and that's why you end up with two different abilities on the same card?

Here's a midly related question. A friend was playing against and Olivia Voldaren deck using his Hydras in commander. The question came up was when olivia tried to turn my friends protean hydra into a vampire, if the damage being prevented stopped the vampire transformation. We surmised it didn't as there was a period after the damage dealt the vampirism seemed like its own separate effect.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 07 Sep 2014, 16:00

O-Ring and Banisher Priests are very different, and it's due to wording. Banisher Priest uses the 'fixed' wording that is shares with Banishing Light. Fiend Hunter shares the abusable wording that O-Ring has. You can get up to some bounce and similar shenanigans with O-Ring and Fiend Hunter. You cannot with Banisher Priest and Banishing Light.

To explain why, you can just look at the cards and see the difference. For O-Ring and Fiend hunter, the 'exile' and 'return' abilities are separated. If you destroy/blink/whatever Fiend Hunter or Oblivion Ring before the first ability (the exiling one) resolves, then the second 'return' ability goes on the stack on top of the first trigger. The return ability resolves first since it's on top of the stack. But since nothing is exiled, nothing is returned. Then, the first ability (the exiling ability) resolves, exiling the target. Since the card with the return ability is gone (either from being treated as a new card due to being blinked, or being destroyed, or some similar effect), the return ability will never have the chance to trigger again. Meaning the targeted card will stay exiled.

So basically (now that I've reread the question), the period does NOT mean that the ability is a separate ability. If there are two abilities, they'd be separated in the text box rather than being scrunched together. So there's have to be space between the two abilities to have them be separate. And (assuming both are triggered abilities) both would have to have a "Whenever X happens" or something similar. Or, for a planeswalker, it'd have to be different loyalty abilities, since I don't believe there's a legal formatting where one loyalty ability has two separate triggers. When any ability on the stack starts resolving (like Garruk's "destroy/gain life"), everything in the ability has to finish resolving before other things can be done (I believe that includes state-based actions, but I'm not sure).[as a note: This paragraph was edited in, so it seems a lot more... unfocused. Sorry. Let me know if it causes more confusion.]

For Olivia, you're correct. The damage, becoming a vampire, and her getting a +1/+1 are all separate parts of the same ability. The damage is prevented. But unlike if the target goes away (which would cause the ability to fizzle due to all targets of the ability becoming illegal I believe), the ability doesn't fizzle. So the creature still becomes a vampire. And Olivia will still get bigger.

That might not be the best way to explain it, but I'm confident I'm correct.
Last edited by Kapol on 07 Sep 2014, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 07 Sep 2014, 16:06

Ah yes, I meant fiend hunter, just kept writing banisher priest even when i pictured fiend hunter art.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 07 Sep 2014, 16:07

That's understandable. I still have trouble remembering Banishing Light's name myself. Mostly because I keep confusing it with Devouring Light. At least your confusion is that they both have basically the same ability
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 09 Sep 2014, 08:12

If I pitch Far//Away to Disciple of Deceit may I look for a CMC 2, CMC 3, CMC 5, or all 3?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 09 Sep 2014, 08:53

Not a judge, but I'm pretty sure you can look for a 2 CMC or a 3 CMC, provided you say which side you're pitching. If you pitch Far, you can look for a 2 CMC, and if you pitch Away, you can look for a 3 CMC.

I am pretty sure that Fuse does not apply unless you are actually casting the card.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Volafortis » 09 Sep 2014, 09:50

Yep, Memo's right. You choose whether you're pitching Far or Away, and search accordingly.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 09 Sep 2014, 10:30

Fusing a split card makes it a single effect on the stack, right? There would be no way to fuse Give and Take and somehow put something like Mutant's Prey in the middle for more value, correct? I assuming I can't have this scenario: have Give put 3 counters on, Mutant's Prey has it fight something, then have Take get rid of all 3 counters so I can draw 3 cards.

(Well, I could if I had 2 copies of Give/Take and cast them separately, but this is referring to only 2 cards and fusing the one.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 09 Sep 2014, 10:52

Not a judge, but from what it says on gatherer I believe when you cast a fused split card you do the actions from left to right with no chance to respond between fused effects. So there would be no time to respond in between Give and Take.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Volafortis » 09 Sep 2014, 13:10

Again, yes, if you fuse a card, you cast them both, left to right, as a single effect on the stack.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 09 Sep 2014, 15:18

Volafortis wrote:Yep, Memo's right. You choose whether you're pitching Far or Away, and search accordingly.

I don't believe that's the case. You pitch Far//Away, and then can search for a card that is either CMC 2 or 3.

I mean, effectively it's the same, but you don't have to say whether you're searching for a 2 or 3 before you start flicking through your deck, which could be relevant if you aren't sure what you're searching for...

(Also, this works on both sides... so for instance you can pitch Far//Away and go search for, say, Beck//Call, because they both have CMC 2.)
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