Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Lycodrake » 08 Dec 2015, 06:42

I'm really curious to see the other creatures in this Legendary cycle. I mean, surely they're not going to break flavor and have a Legendary Eldrazi for UB, BR, and UR - right?
Also, yes, I'm obviously looking forward to seeing what they do for the GW one.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby SixFootTurkey » 09 Dec 2015, 15:40

There's no guarantee it's a legendary cycle. We have an allied color legendary (RG) and an enemy color one (WB); for there to be a cycle, one of these would have to not be part of it, it would have to be a non uniform cycle (a few ally pairs a few enemy pairs), or a ten card cycle. We had three colored legendary creatures in the first set (RG, RW, BW).
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 09 Dec 2015, 16:29

I kind of doubt it'll be a cycle. They'd have to devote 10 rare slots to it, given we have one enemy-color legend and one allied-color legend. That seems a lot less likely in a small set not focused on a multicolor plane like Ravnica. This feels like story legends getting their own cards.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Lycodrake » 10 Dec 2015, 10:22

SixFootTurkey wrote:There's no guarantee it's a legendary cycle. We have an allied color legendary (RG) and an enemy color one (WB); for there to be a cycle, one of these would have to not be part of it, it would have to be a non uniform cycle (a few ally pairs a few enemy pairs), or a ten card cycle. We had three colored legendary creatures in the first set (RG, RW, BW).

I think you mean WU, not BW. We also had mono-color legends in Drana and Zada.
But you are correct. There's always a chance that we'll see two-colored legends in the other color-pairs, though.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 10 Dec 2015, 10:48

So, here's something that was brought up on Reddit (I read the comments, which is sometimes a pit of filth, but turned out ok this time). Here's the prerelease pack:

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The packs have been shown before, but this puts them together, and someone brought up that the art used on packs is always from cards. I assume they'll be more pack designs that have Eldrazi on them, but they haven't shown them yet as they just revealed (biiiig surprise to anyone who's been paying attention ;) ) that Kozilek is back. However, these four are seem likely to be a cycle of "Oaths".

What will they do?

And will, like someone suggested, there be a black card in the cycle that's just Ob Nixilis giving everyone the finger?
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby SixFootTurkey » 10 Dec 2015, 13:50

Black 'oath' could very well be related to Drana. (Or they could have an intentional 4 card cycle, but that would have to matter to the core themes of the set - the all v Ob would need to be very prevalent.)
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby MagisterMystax » 11 Dec 2015, 06:18

Wastes and Kozilek have been confirmed on @wizards_magic's twitter! The square means colourless after all. I find it very weird that they are making this change mid-block, and can't help but feel BfZ things that produce colourless mana are going to feel very off in full-block drafts. That said, I'm pretty stoked about it.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 11 Dec 2015, 07:46

I wonder if that's one of the big reasons that Oath is having two packs drafted. With cards with 'colorless' mana requiring that kind of mana producers to get out, and the fact that Wastes have to be drafted, it's going to lead to some problems casting them I feel.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 11 Dec 2015, 08:16

Kapol wrote:I wonder if that's one of the big reasons that Oath is having two packs drafted. With cards with 'colorless' mana requiring that kind of mana producers to get out, and the fact that Wastes have to be drafted, it's going to lead to some problems casting them I feel.

Well, anything that produces colorless mana will (retcon) produce '<>'. So, the uncommon Blighted lands and Spawning Bed, as well as the rare Ally Encampment, Sanctum of Ugin, Shrine of the Forsaken Gods will be available from the 1 BFZ pack in the draft. Not to mention Hedron Archive at uncommon and Kozilek's Channeler at common.

I don't have a good feel on how many cards will have <> in their casting costs, but I think if you need it, you'll be able to get it - but you'll have to pay attention to that, for sure.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 11 Dec 2015, 08:29

(By the way, flavor win? Kozilek's Channeler provides the required colorless mana for Kozilek!)

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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby bv310 » 11 Dec 2015, 08:35

I think it's an interesting design space to open up for sure. Having something be ONLY castable from colourless is really interesting (and does cool things to the value of lands like Llanowar Wastes and Brushland)
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 11 Dec 2015, 10:09

The Martini wrote:
Kapol wrote:I wonder if that's one of the big reasons that Oath is having two packs drafted. With cards with 'colorless' mana requiring that kind of mana producers to get out, and the fact that Wastes have to be drafted, it's going to lead to some problems casting them I feel.

Well, anything that produces colorless mana will (retcon) produce '<>'. So, the uncommon Blighted lands and Spawning Bed, as well as the rare Ally Encampment, Sanctum of Ugin, Shrine of the Forsaken Gods will be available from the 1 BFZ pack in the draft. Not to mention Hedron Archive at uncommon and Kozilek's Channeler at common.

I don't have a good feel on how many cards will have <> in their casting costs, but I think if you need it, you'll be able to get it - but you'll have to pay attention to that, for sure.



Everything you mentioned is uncommon or higher though besides a 5-drop creature. Not being able to cast your spells due to color screw happens enough in limited already. Having to hope you draw one of your few uncommon or rare lands to be able to cast your colorless spell is more likely to make that a problem. The rare land are largely mediocre in my opinion, and most of the uncommons require you be in that color to do anything extra for you Hedron Archieve is also 4 mana. So with that and Channeler being the main producers, anything below 4 mana is uncastable on-curve unless you get a land.

My point is Wastes are likely going to be important. Wastes are likely going to go later than the rare lands or blighted cycle, meaning you don't have to devote an early pick to what's basically a colorless land. So having two packs of with them makes more sense. It also allows the colorless cards to be more common, giving you more value for actually playing the colorless lands and having those cards not lose a lot of value. Chances are we'll likely see a good amount of colorless mana producing cards in the next set as well.

That is, unless they don't do much with the whole 'colorless mana' thing, at which point it seems strange to have done it at all. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up basically just being a way to introduce colorless lands and have them be semi-relevant in limited.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 11 Dec 2015, 10:48

Kapol wrote:Everything you mentioned is uncommon or higher though besides a 5-drop creature. Not being able to cast your spells due to color screw happens enough in limited already. Having to hope you draw one of your few uncommon or rare lands to be able to cast your colorless spell is more likely to make that a problem. The rare land are largely mediocre in my opinion, and most of the uncommons require you be in that color to do anything extra for you Hedron Archieve is also 4 mana. So with that and Channeler being the main producers, anything below 4 mana is uncastable on-curve unless you get a land.

My point is Wastes are likely going to be important. Wastes are likely going to go later than the rare lands or blighted cycle, meaning you don't have to devote an early pick to what's basically a colorless land. So having two packs of with them makes more sense. It also allows the colorless cards to be more common, giving you more value for actually playing the colorless lands and having those cards not lose a lot of value. Chances are we'll likely see a good amount of colorless mana producing cards in the next set as well.

That is, unless they don't do much with the whole 'colorless mana' thing, at which point it seems strange to have done it at all. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up basically just being a way to introduce colorless lands and have them be semi-relevant in limited.


Oh yea, agreed - with mostly uncommon or higher cost things, you won't be guaranteed to get colorless early without Wastes, with what we know know (not much). They do say in the preview from the World Magic Cup (https://youtu.be/ZA-eWvDPZX8) that there'll be plenty of ways to make colorless mana in Oath - besides the Wastes being a 'double common' (there's two versions, an Ulamog one and a Kozilek one that go in the common slots separately). And who knows what the costs of things that require colorless (either casting or activation) - only on the more expensive things? Tons still to find out about.

As for introducing colorless basics to the wider game, I hope that it is pretty relevant in Limited and not just a tiny thing - it sounds super-interesting in concept at least. As for outside limited, who does this interest? Karn or Eldrazi Commanders I guess? Not an expert on other formats (OK any formats) here.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 11 Dec 2015, 11:22

Yeah, that was my main point with Oath making sense as being a much heavier small set than normal. You can count on BFZ for colorless mana really. And without that, the 'colorless' spells would have to be very strong to be worth playing at all, since it would be a lot harder to play them consistently. With Wastes being in two packs, as well as the 'colorless' cards, they shouldn't just fall by the wayside as easily. Though it is going to make it something that needs to be drafted around.

I really am hoping it's something that stays pretty exclusively to Battle or sets that have a 'colorless matters' sort of theme. As it stands, it still makes me nervous that it's going to become the 'sixth color.' But Wastes being uncommon rather than a normal land makes me think it will be fairly benign.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 11 Dec 2015, 11:32

Kapol wrote:...I really am hoping it's something that stays pretty exclusively to Battle or sets that have a 'colorless matters' sort of theme. As it stands, it still makes me nervous that it's going to become the 'sixth color.' But Wastes being uncommon rather than a normal land makes me think it will be fairly benign.

I can't remember who it was, but someone form Wizards said that they were only using ✧ in costs for things where colorless requirements makes sense, as you said. Will try to find a source on that...

Oh, and probably a typo, but Wastes are commons - "double commons", actually, since there are two separate versions each with its own common slot. I assume that these show up in the common slots in a pack, anyway, not the 'basic land' slot. Who knows.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 11 Dec 2015, 11:55

That was a typo. And while there are two separate art Wastes, I don't think that'll affect how often they show up in packs. But as I don't know how the printing process as a whole works, take that with a grain of salt.

And it's one thing to say that they'll only do it when it makes sense and another to actually do it. I feel like they'll be more pressure to have it happen if a lot of people like it.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 11 Dec 2015, 12:03

Kapol wrote:And it's one thing to say that they'll only do it when it makes sense and another to actually do it. I feel like they'll be more pressure to have it happen if a lot of people like it.

Well, if you take it only from social media response, this is the WORST THING WIZARDS HAS DONE YET and THEY'RE RUINING THE GAME BY MAKING UNNECESSARY CHANGES so they'll probably never do this again, and further, will burn the printings of Goatwatch and create new ones to correct their idiot mistake :roll:

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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Randus2003 » 11 Dec 2015, 13:06

All I can say is this is better that the color purple they considered adding back in the late 90s early 2000s...those were the days talk about the "this will kill magic" complaints and there wasn't really any internet let alone social media for ppl to complain on.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby demiteddybear » 12 Dec 2015, 07:28

I'm excited, I will actually be able to build my pure colorless deck filled with just artifacts and eldrazi, it shall be beautiful and fairly useless. I'm also excited about mina and denn to go in my RG eldrazi land killing ramp deck.

Edit: I just watched the second preview talks from Barcelona and they previewed crush of tentacles.....ok, new idea a WU awaken surge deck.

4UU
Sorcery - mythic rare
Surge 3UU (if you or a teammate has played a spell this turn you can cast surge cost
Return all nonland spells to their owners hands. If you paid the surge cost you get an 8/8 blue octopus creature token.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby SixFootTurkey » 12 Dec 2015, 08:33

MagisterMystax wrote:Wastes and Kozilek have been confirmed on @wizards_magic's twitter! The square means colourless after all. I find it very weird that they are making this change mid-block, and can't help but feel BfZ things that produce colourless mana are going to feel very off in full-block drafts. That said, I'm pretty stoked about it.


BFZ was likely too far along in development when they came up with this and gained enough faith that it would be useful.

Kapol wrote:I wonder if that's one of the big reasons that Oath is having two packs drafted. With cards with 'colorless' mana requiring that kind of mana producers to get out, and the fact that Wastes have to be drafted, it's going to lead to some problems casting them I feel.


The second set will have two packs drafted to allow the second set to have more of an impact, and to allow you to see more of the cards. This is the (default) method going forward for all blocks, not just BFZ/OGW.

Wastes are a basic land; have confirmed whether or not you will be able to add any number of Wastes to your limited deck? I find it unlikely that they would go out of the way to make it a basic land, and then make an exception for one of the only times that super type matters in the rules.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't quite there, but <> is definitely the logical step if you wish to make a colorless basic land. My one issue with colorless basics, was that they were just inherently weaker than other basics without some other factor. Making a colorless mana symbol that must be paid with colorless mana, negates that obstacle quite nicely.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 12 Dec 2015, 09:50

SixFootTurkey wrote:BFZ was likely too far along in development when they came up with this and gained enough faith that it would be useful.

MaRo actually weighed in on this - they had the idea ready in time for BFZ. The argument was 'first set of the block' vs. 'when it's mechanically relevant'. He voted for having it in BFZ, but got outvoted for the set where you actually have colorless required in costs and abilities. Apparently that's Kozilek's thing, where ingest/process is Ulamog's.

SixFootTurkey wrote:Wastes are a basic land; have confirmed whether or not you will be able to add any number of Wastes to your limited deck? I find it unlikely that they would go out of the way to make it a basic land, and then make an exception for one of the only times that super type matters in the rules.

They talk about this in the reveal video - Wastes won't be available at the land station (or "Add Basic Lands" in MtGO), you'll have to draft them. They are commons, though, not in the land slot, and there are two of them, so they're 'double common'. In constructed, of course, you can add as many as you want, though I suspect that's only really relevant for Commander.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby The Martini » 12 Dec 2015, 09:59

Also, another preview from the World Magic Cup:
Image
There's the "Two-Headed Giant" themed mechanics we heard a bit about, though it's also usable in 1v1. Pretty neat possibilities in any case; surge could be cheaper, could be more expensive, could have a bonus if you cast it with surge, or a drawback, or be made in such a way that casting at after something else is cheaper but less advantageous...

Also, house rule: every time you cast it, you have to yell "SUUUUUUUUUURGE!"
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby AdmiralMemo » 12 Dec 2015, 11:06

I think that many people on the Internet talking about this are forgetting that Scions produce ✧ mana. If something is going to require ✧ to cast or activate in Oath, it's going to be related to Eldrazi. Therefore, let's see how many ways you can produce ✧ just from what we know, not even counting what else from Oath has yet to be spoiled.

Common:
Wastes (Kozilek)
Wastes (Ulamog)
Blisterpod
Call the Scions
Eldrazi Skyspawner
Eyeless Watcher
Grave Birthing
Incubator Drone
Kozilek's Channeler

Uncommon:
Adverse Conditions
Blighted Cataract
Blighted Fen
Blighted Gorge
Blighted Steppe
Blighted Woodland
Brood Monitor
Carrier Thrall
Catacomb Sifter
Hedron Archive
Spawning Bed
Void Attendant

Rare:
Ally Encampment
Blight Herder
Brood Butcher
Drowner of Hope
From Beyond
Mirrorpool
Sanctum of Ugin
Shrine of the Forsaken Gods

That's 29 ways to produce ✧ mana in these two sets so far, 9 of which are Common and 11 of which are uncommon. If you already know that you're going to need ✧ for casting or activation in draft (and I doubt that you'll need much, since Kozilek, most likely the biggest thing in the set to require ✧ mana, only requires ✧✧), I think that there will be more than enough chances to pick up and draw ✧ mana producers.

It does kind of force you into Sultai colors, but I think that's an acceptable thing.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 12 Dec 2015, 13:10

I'd be surprised if you would be able to add Wastes to your deck without pulling them. They're similar to snow-covered lands in that way. They're basic lands, but special ones that you can't just add to any limited deck.

And that's a good point Memo. I had forgotten that Scions make it as well. Though I do think that scions aren't an amazing solution if producing colorless does become an issue, since that means you have to give up a 1/1 to pay that mana cost (which especially sucks later in the game where you have extra mana anyways). It also suffers the issue of not being on anything under 3 mana excluding the ones that have to die in order to give you access. But how much that matters is really dependent on how relevant early-game 'colorless' creatures will be.

SixFootTurkey wrote:The second set will have two packs drafted to allow the second set to have more of an impact, and to allow you to see more of the cards. This is the (default) method going forward for all blocks, not just BFZ/OGW.


The first part was what I was saying. Though I hadn't heard that was going to be normal from here on. Out of curiosity, where did they announce that?
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Macheya » 12 Dec 2015, 18:03

Memo, you forgot Hedron Archive.

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