IDDQDerp

[TheHokeyPokey]

I think a lot of the reason the dark souls community is dismissive to new players is defensiveness. There are a lot of people that start playing the souls series who whine and moan about how their death was "bullshit" and blame the game for being unfair. Fans are afraid that From Software might water the game down based on this feedback. It is a completely unfounded fear, because From Software makes games based on what they would want to play.

I think the barrier for entry is absolutely necessary and it would be a lesser game if it just came out and explicitly explained all its systems. Dark Souls eschews teaching anything beyond basic controls in favor of teaching you the most important skill for progressing into the late game: observation. Everything that happens in this game is telegraphed; every attack has a unique animation. Even the "surprise" Hellkite Dragon is given away by the scorch marks on the bridge. In order to be successful in this game, you have to learn to pay attention. You don't have to read gamefaqs to learn the systems and minutiae, you just have to pay attention to the information it gives you and observe what happens when you try things for yourself. Dark Souls requires you to get on it's level, and once you're there you will be glad it didn't compromise. Other games' tutorial systems will seem patronizing in comparison.

I'm aware that pro strats exist, but telling me to use them on my first playthrough is like saying to skip 2+2=4 and go right to calculus because it's the most powerful math. What I wanted to say to certain people in the chat was "may I please learn the fucking basics first?". I will pick up backstabbing and parrying and riposting and optimal builds and all that other shit in time, but for now slow and steady works for me.

Slow and steady is fine, and is probably best for a first run. It is worth noting, however, that some of these "pro strats" aren't exactly like skipping to calculus. For example, fat rolling (community lingo for heavy encumbrance) is like first picking fog in a Magic draft. It completely gimps dodging; the most important defensive option you have and the damage reduction doesn't always let you take an extra hit. Removing my armor (I started as knight as well) was one of the first major steps to breaking through the wall for me. You can stay in heavy armor if you want, but it will make the game much harder for you. Also, holding up your shield when you have low stamina is how you kept getting your guard broken.

[empath]

I realized something; apart from the broad mechanics of real-time vs. turn-based, and a simplistic 2d drawing of a 3d scene vs. proper modelling of 3d objects in a 3d modelled area (and displayed on a 2d monitor ) the "... Souls" games remind me of my early cRPG experiences - Wizardry for example (okay, taking a party instead of a single character): venturing into the dungeon and fighting a series of monsters until we reach our limit, then fleeing back to town to heal, train and purchase new gear, then returning and grinding through those same monsters until improved enough to beat the 'first' wave with ease and delve a little further, etc. etc.

...even the death mechanic was/is broadly similar - if you died in the elder, you DID have to create a new party, but you could fight to the site of your previous adventurers' bodies and recover them (and their gear).

So, you could say that From Software takes old-school sensibilities and brings them current with all the advantages we have now (I wonder what Sir-Tech would have given us if they had 3d modelling, gigabytes of RAM and terabytes of hard storage, processor speeds in gigahertz, etc. etc.)

[Senstaku]

So, I just found a game that I feel Alex should play...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys9zvmNUBr8

Jurrasic Park: Trespasser

I would re-subscribe to see his reactions.

[notomtolose]

DARK SOULS

PHILOSOPHY:
Give players mental permission to 'cheat' (i.e. reading FAQs, summoning other players) by making the game mysterious, taking away expected functions (pausing) and by deliberate use of difficulty spikes.

IMPACT ON DOCUMENTATION:
Developer intent, for better or worse, is that you grow accustomed to using online FAQs and/or commiserating with friends to learn everything about this game. The typical gamer's attitude is that sharing information (FAQs) and even gameplay (summoning players) is 'cheating', but Dark Souls is designed specifically to make you do both. They're intentionally working against our preferences as 'experienced gamers' or whatever, but to make that explicit would spoil the effect for many players. If you won't or can't do those things, the game is still possible to play and beat, but you're working against the design and will probably not have as much fun.

IMPACT ON STREAMING:
Excellent to watch. Difficulty spikes make for big tilts and great low-brow entertainment. Sweet graphics and art design, constant drama; Traumatic failures and gleeful victories.

Invasions mean some jerk player will probably make a habit of ruining your day sometimes, which the chat will claim to hate but secretly find hilarious about half the time. On the other hand, if/when you actually beat one, it's a highlight for sure. Plus, spoiler: Sometimes you might get 'friendly' invaders that will actually just dump you items and then leave. How will you deal with that?

Summoning is more selective, you could potentially choose a viewer to join you if you like, meaning you can actually set parameters for what they'll do and how much they help (assuming they will take orders).

HAS MAJOR FLAWS:
Myopic menu design is unnecessarily difficult to use. Weak localization is partly to blame (ReqParam? What?) but not entirely. Part of the problem is self-defeating design.

Since the menus do not pause the game, the design is meant to be able to expose and activate any function within the minimum number of button presses. Therefore, the menus are not deeply nested or organized like typical RPG menus. Common sense would then dictate that the menus be simplified to compliment this design, but the opposite is true. The equipment menus expose huge volumes of irrelevant information which obscure the important statistics. I suspect that this was not fixed partly because, again, it not-so-subtly encourages the player to look online for help learning how to equip themselves more effectively. Not exactly the most elegant example of that philosophy at work.

END RESULT:
One of the most satisfying game experiences of my life. As a supposed 'adult' who can't make time for nearly the number of games I'd like to play, I still platinum-ed Demon's Souls and got 1000/1000 on Dark Souls twice (both on 360 and on GFWL).

However, I still consider myself pretty bad at Dark Souls, having never yet built a character to a spec that can deal effectively with every kind of encounter in the game. I should probably have looked up some more optimal builds and 'pro strats', but hey. I'm a real gamer, over here, okay? It's not like I'd ever CHEAT!

[notomtolose]

You know that Winged Spear you found in the graveyard by Firelink Shrine? It's an excellent beginner weapon.

You'll need to level up a touch to use it (13 STR, 15 DEX) and the DPS is not great. However, it allows you to attack with your shield still up, which is perfect when you meet new enemies. You'll want something faster with more kick as you advance (and for bosses) but for new areas a good spear is a big help while you learn the encounters.

[MadWaltz]

Okay, I swear I'm not gonna totally co-opt this thread, but I gotta mention this:

Someone in the chat advised that 'everything is explained in the Demons Souls manual', and - for the most part - that's correct.

For the record, I was the one who said that, and I actually totally agree with you that it's poor design and business sense. As I said after Alex called me out on it, I wasn't trying to defend Dark Souls at all. I was just stating what I knew to be true. If I had a point there, it was more just that it's odd.

Also, to be clear, not "everything" is explained in the Demon's Souls manual. But it at least explains itself quite a bit better than Dark Souls does, and many of the mechanics carry over. Even having played Demon's Souls though, I still had to look at the wiki to have the slightest clue what humanity and poise even do. Actually, in hopes of possibly making things easier on Alex:


Explanation Of Poise And Humanity:


POISE: Poise is stun resistance. A character with 0 poise will flinch after he gets hit by any attack. Essentially, each enemy attack has a certain threshold, and if your poise is over that threshold, you won't be stunned when you get hit by that attack. For instance, if you have about 20 poise, that's enough that most arrows and bolts won't stun you, but most other attacks will. Wearing the entire knight armor set, you have enough poise to endure most weak attacks without flinching, I think.

Heavy armors grant poise, and while the heavier armors do generally have higher physical defense than lighter ones, poise is actually the main advantage of using heavy armor. Note that Poise has no effect on blocking (stability is the relevant stat there, which works differently)


HUMANITY: It's important to note that "human form" and what I'll call "held humanity" are two completely different things. Being in human form allows you to kindle bonfires, see other player's/NPC summon signs (which allows you to summon them for co-op play), leave your own summon sign with the white soapstone (which allows other players to summon you), and allows other players to invade you.

Held humanity is the number in the top left corner of the screen next to the health/stamina bar. Holding more humanity will increase your defense, your curse resistance, and the drop rates of enemies. Also, turning to human form and kindling bonfires each cost 1 humanity. Held humanity can be increased simply by killing enemies, or by using "Humanity" items. Held humanity is dropped on death just like souls are.

Exactly. I'm aware that pro strats exist, but telling me to use them on my first playthrough is like saying to skip 2+2=4 and go right to calculus because it's the most powerful math. What I wanted to say to certain people in the chat was "may I please learn the fucking basics first?". I will pick up backstabbing and parrying and riposting and optimal builds and all that other shit in time, but for now slow and steady works for me. It's like being good at video games infects some people with selective amnesia so they don't remember what it was like starting out which makes them deride novices.

I hope I wasn't one of those people getting on your nerves. If I was, I apologize.

However, I think you are perceiving people's comments as being much more derisive than they were intended to be. I think at least 99% of the people giving you advice (whether it was good or bad advice, and telling you to riposte when you are still learning the basics is imo bad advice) were trying to give it BECAUSE they remembered what it was like starting out, and were trying to help. As far as I could tell, no one was deriding you for "playing wrong."

I was actually getting slightly frustrated at all the people deriding the "pro Dark Souls players" trying to "help." Personally, I was trying to explain how stuff in the game works because, as we've established, the game does a poor job of teaching the player how stuff works. But I feel like since Yahtzee made a video saying that "Dark Souls players are dicks," there's an expectation for Dark Souls players to be dicks. Regardless of whether that's actually happening or not.

Other than that, I enjoyed your stream immensely Alex. I hope you'll stream it again some time.

[Alex Steacy]

I think the barrier for entry is absolutely necessary and it would be a lesser game if it just came out and explicitly explained all its systems. Dark Souls eschews teaching anything beyond basic controls in favor of teaching you the most important skill for progressing into the late game: observation. Everything that happens in this game is telegraphed; every attack has a unique animation. Even the "surprise" Hellkite Dragon is given away by the scorch marks on the bridge. In order to be successful in this game, you have to learn to pay attention. You don't have to read gamefaqs to learn the systems and minutiae, you just have to pay attention to the information it gives you and observe what happens when you try things for yourself. Dark Souls requires you to get on it's level, and once you're there you will be glad it didn't compromise. Other games' tutorial systems will seem patronizing in comparison.

Couldn't disagree more. Observation is going to help you, but what observation in a reasonable timeframe is going to tell you what poise is, or what the tiny icons marked with letters mean on weapon stats, or why humanity is good and what you can do with it.

I know all of those things now because I looked it up online because the game will never tell me that. And I understand the concern about condescending, hand-holding tutorials, but Dark Souls goes too far in the opposite direction. Dark Souls gives you a set of handlebars and says "bike to Milan" and walks away. Only after looking up how to build a goddamn bike can you can tackle the exciting challenge of the actual journey. And that's the fundamental problem. The challenge of Dark Souls is (or should be) the game, not how to play the game. Speaking personally, now that I have a handle on how to play Dark Souls I'm not looking at any other guides unless I get really stuck because I now have the tools I need to explore the adventure it has to offer.

Let me put my beef another way - Dark Souls' lack of information makes the experience like trying to read a really good book in a different language with only a one page traveler primer. Unless you learn that language first, your enjoyment of the narrative will be easily eclipsed by the frustration of not comprehending any of the words.

And I absolutely disagree that a barrier to entry needs to exist for the game to be good. This idea is the very quintessence of elitism in videogaming and it needs to stop. As it is with any quality niche, parts of the Dark Souls community treat it like a secret exclusive club that musn't admit any unworthy plebs lest their idol become tainted. And it's total horseshit. If you get upset at the idea of more people being able to enjoy something you enjoy, you may want to reassess your values. It isn't okay to imply that you know the "correct" way to appreciate something.

Anyway, here's my suggestion on how to fix it. You have one NPC that you meet early - let's say a librarian. You can talk to him to read explanations and tutorials on every single aspect of the game. Veterans aren't forced into tedious or long-winded tutorials and newcomers have a resource they can refer to and learn from. There you go.

[romangoro]

My 2 cents: Real Hard Games© like Nethack, Dungeon Crawl or Dwarf Fortress have huge in game manuals, large wikis that you can (and usually should) check while playing the game and also huge and, most importantly, very helpful communities.

They are still hard as eff, with step learning curves and still a lot of fun.

[Alex Steacy]

Yeah, there's no problem with really hard games. There's definitely a problem with really hard games that don't tell you how to play them properly.

[Lysander]

Thank you for streaming Dark Souls, and also posting that info on your Tumblr page. Not until your stream did I actually have any interest in playing the game. Now I'm seriously considering buying it.

Still unsure about the whole Invasion mechanic. If that was something you could toggle I'd probably jump on this. It seems like an inelegant approach to marrying game design with story. I think what they might have been shooting for originally is summoning help, but the summoning would have a chance of matching you with a pvp player or hostile npc instead. I prefer my pvp to be optional -- if there were PvP arenas I'd be fine. As it is, the mechanic makes me not want to go human despite the supposed advantages. And not buy the game.

I wonder if there's a mod that can toggle invasion.

[Jamfalcon]

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about invasion. I've been playing for about 60 hours, and generally not going into human form unless I want to kindle a bonfire. In that entire time I've been invaded twice, and those were by the same person, in the same place, one right after the other. I thought I'd hate that aspect, and while I certainly wouldn't want it happening all the time, it was a tense, ten minute-long battle that was a change of pace from the normal game, but didn't ruin it by any means.

And for the other 59 and a half hours, the invasion mechanic hasn't prevented Dark Souls from being the best game I've played in years. Like Alex says, it's not a game for everyone, but don't let this be the thing to put you off it.

If it is a problem, you can chose to play in offline mode. This will also block summon other players to help, and more importantly, the notes that have been left. I wouldn't want to give that up, but it is possible.

[Alex Steacy]

Thank you for streaming Dark Souls, and also posting that info on your Tumblr page. Not until your stream did I actually have any interest in playing the game. Now I'm seriously considering buying it.

Glad to hear that! It's a tough nut to crack, but so tasty. Also I'm just glancing over a PDF of the Demon's Souls manual and it is SUPER HELPFUL. They really ought to have made one like this for Dark Souls.

[ch3m1kal]

You know I've always said Demon's Souls is a better game, but never really figured out why Dark Souls is the one that got all the hype, even though they're pretty much the same.

Then I looked it up, the only real difference(besides the fact that Demon's Souls actually makes an effort to explain itself to the player) is that Dark Souls is not PS3 exclusive so there was more room for idiot fanboys to ruin everything and pretend they're so much better than you because they put over 200 hours into it.

[notomtolose]

The difference between Demon's Souls and Dark Souls? I can solve that mystery for you.

Improvements to Dark Souls over Demon's Souls
- Estus > Grass
- Bonfires > Nexus
- Bottomless Box > Stockpile Thomas
- No general item encumbrance
- Open level design
- More NPCs
- More bosses
- Higher average boss quality
- More viable builds
- Magic options for any build
- Covenants add more and better multiplayer options
- No wasting time manipulating World Tendency
- No weird crystal lizard spawn system, they don't throw your loot off cliffs anymore
- Possible to fully upgrade any weapon without grinding insanely for drops

Personally, I also prefer the original for a variety of reasons specific to my experience, but there's really no question as to which is the more accomplished work.

[Alex Steacy]

Also can someone tell me what the hell covenants are and how they work? All I've been able to work out is that they're some kind of quest. Maybe.

[Jamfalcon]

As I understand it (haven't delved into the system too deeply), they're basically a group you can join. You can only be in one at a time, and they provide some manner of benefit. Each one has a method to increase your standing with them such as collecting a specific type of item, which will unlock further benefits.

Personally, I joined the Chaos Servants for an extra pyromancy. It looks like the vast majority of them are focused on online play, and two give some miracles.

This Wiki has a reasonably straight-forward explanation of the benefits, and that page doesn't give away information like where to find them, if you want to discover that sort of thing yourself.

[notomtolose]

You can be in just one of the nine covenants at a given time. You get in simply by talking to that covenant's specific NPC and asking. The TL;DR version is in italics at the bottom.

It's technically a 'sin' to switch covenants without talking to a certain NPC, but this is not really relevant.

There are a few reasons to be in a covenant:

- Some of them provide items or spells as perks, many related to PVP but some not. People mostly want these because they're connected to cheevos.

- One of them opens a really valuable shortcut about a third of the way into the game, if you offer enough Humanity.

- Five of them offer access to PVP options.

- Three of them confer an affinity for co-op players of the same covenant and reduce your chance of being invaded.

The Way of White you find first in the game is one of these. The Warrior of Sunlight and Princess Guard covenants are the others.

Fun fact: The covenants are roughly meant to match up with the old D&D alignment grid.

[TheHokeyPokey]

Couldn't disagree more. Observation is going to help you, but what observation in a reasonable timeframe is going to tell you what poise is, or what the tiny icons marked with letters mean on weapon stats, or why humanity is good and what you can do with it.

You can learn what poise means by changing the number with different armor and observing how gameplay changes. It is also helpful that the word literally means balance. Stat scaling is learned by watching the damage change as you level, as well as remembering what the stat descriptions said.

Humanity is probably the easiest to understand, as the majority of its effects are plainly stated on the bonfire menu. The way I learned it is by trying to kindle a fire. I didn't know what kindling did, but I was just trying all the menu items. It said I couldn't while hollowed, and the option under that said reverse hollowing. I tried that option and it said I needed humanity. After going through the whole process I saw my estus count go up. I also started seeing summon signs appear and was invaded. That is all it takes to learn that system.

And I absolutely disagree that a barrier to entry needs to exist for the game to be good. This idea is the very quintessence of elitism in videogaming and it needs to stop. As it is with any quality niche, parts of the Dark Souls community treat it like a secret exclusive club that musn't admit any unworthy plebs lest their idol become tainted. And it's total horseshit. If you get upset at the idea of more people being able to enjoy something you enjoy, you may want to reassess your values. It isn't okay to imply that you know the "correct" way to appreciate something.

While it is super easy to beat up on a straw man, it isn't particularly useful. If I didn't want people to enjoy what I enjoy, then I wouldn't be evangelizing it as much as I have. I'm not saying there is a correct way to appreciate something, I am saying that Dark Souls is worth appreciating as is. I am saying that the barrier to entry is worth experiencing. I don't want the barrier to keep people out; I want people to break through it. If the barrier wasn't there, then no one would get to experience the "I get it now" moment that I find so gratifying and valuable. I've already experienced it, and I want it to remain so others can get the same joy I did.

One last thing: Don't attribute other people's toxic opinions to me, it is insulting. I addressed the elitism issue at the beginning of my post because I disagree with the attitude it represents. I am genuinely trying to be helpful and you dismiss everything I have to say because of some other guy's behavior. I never called anyone a "pleb" and I never said anyone's opinions were less valuable; that is entirely within your own head.

[Alex Steacy]

Let me start by apologizing for any false representations and straw man fisticuffs. I will try to be more careful in future.

You can learn what poise means by changing the number with different armor and observing how gameplay changes. It is also helpful that the word literally means balance. Stat scaling is learned by watching the damage change as you level, as well as remembering what the stat descriptions said.

Humanity is probably the easiest to understand, as the majority of its effects are plainly stated on the bonfire menu. The way I learned it is by trying to kindle a fire. I didn't know what kindling did, but I was just trying all the menu items. It said I couldn't while hollowed, and the option under that said reverse hollowing. I tried that option and it said I needed humanity. After going through the whole process I saw my estus count go up. I also started seeing summon signs appear and was invaded. That is all it takes to learn that system.

You say these things are easy to understand, I say they are not. I think that your experience with the game may be shielding you from how opaque those systems are to a brand new player. But even if it wasn't, if you're the type who enjoys assembling ikea furniture with no instructions I would never want to take that joy from you. However, some people would really prefer to have that sheet of paper before they begin. And that's all I'm asking for here. Some basic information to use at one's discretion. You say pushing through the barrier to entry is an essential part of the experience. I say the experience is the essential part of the experience. And I think I can understand the appeal of both, but the problem is there is no inbuilt option to do it my way which forces me to go elsewhere to learn the basics. I'm going to roll into yet another metaphor in the hopes that one of them articulates just what I mean.

Imagine Dark Souls is an elite chess master. It invites you to play a game with its bespoke chessboard, and you arrive with excitement of what the experience might hold. You have never played chess before. You ask how to, and Dark Souls says "move the pieces" and starts its first play. You maneuver pieces around the board and every time you make an illegal move Dark Souls swats your hand and puts the piece back where it was, only offering advice like "try knight" and "need pawn". Some players will perservere long enough to learn how to play chess and then start the challenge of defeating Dark Souls. Others will say "This is bullshit. Please tell me how to play so we can have a god damn game." And they aren't wrong. They're just different in their desires and learning style.

I get it that you got a kick out of learning how to play and then playing. I did not. I did a little research to figure out what I considered to be the basics, and now I am thoroughly enjoying playing. The problem I have with your viewpoint is that I don't like the implication that I must blindly stumble through figuring out what the ground rules even are before I can compete, and that the blind stumbling is a crucial aspect of the experience. Honestly I think we just learn and play differently, and I would like an allowance for people to enjoy something however they please - which is where my accusation about "correct" ways to play came from in the first place.

All I want is a manual. Just a manual. I can read it, you can leave it in the jewel case and we can both enjoy the same game differently. How about that?

[deathjavu]

I was curious to see how this conversation was playing out, and I'm super glad that Alex is enjoying Dark Souls.

I don't agree with the assertion that 'figuring it out' is an essential part of Dark Souls. I looked up TONS of information about Dark Souls and still loved the game. It's very much not a requirement for enjoyment. And I think most of the game systems are extremely opaque: the only one that's relatively easy to figure out via observation is Stamina, and only because there's a visible gauge on-screen.

Without the "figuring it out aspect", there's still plenty to enjoy:

- The atmosphere is dark, depressing and oppressive. As far as atmosphere enhancing the player engagement with the game, Dark Souls is on par with Bioshock or Bastion. All the environments are beautiful and very different from one another.

- The fighting is very deliberate. I've actually heard it compared to the fighting in a fighting game, which seems appropriate to me. Even a low level button masher (the little zombies) can rack up a bunch of damage quickly if you make a mistake, while a high level enemy (Black Knights, for instance) can combo you right out if you mess up.

- Normally in RPGs, your character tend to achieve a level where the combat becomes super boring and repetitive because you are GOD and the enemies are chirping insects. Because of the nature of the combat in Dark Souls, this never truly happens.

- Between the atmosphere, the varied environments, and the way combat never becomes a slog, the world feels HUGE because every part of it, every step of forward progress, matters. To me, the Dark Souls map FEELS bigger than Skyrim. Because most of Skyrim is irrelevant, samey emptiness. This is especially true when you start unlocking shortcuts and seeing how all the various areas are linked, enhancing the feeling of a giant world rather than a series of corridors or sets of copy-pasted mountains and towns.

- And of course, there's the often mentioned satisfaction of beating a boss that's actually hard. Witness Alex's reaction when beating the last boss of Teslagrad.

So there's a bunch of things to love about Dark Souls without the discovery aspect.

Anyway, I ran my first character into the ground with poor stat allocation and weapon upgrading, getting stuck around S&O before a computer problem forced me to restart anyway. I think looking up stat usage and character builds on a wiki is totally valid for something as complex and opaque as Dark Souls.

P.S. : I tried to keep my tips and hints to a minimum when Alex was playing. Chat trying to help a streamer is much like an entire auditorium full of people trying to help a performer. Some people's advice isn't specific enough and leaves off information the performer doesn't know. Some people are rude because they think they're being 'ignored'. And everyone's, everyone's advice is hard to pick out of the cacophony of voices, which most people don't seem to get.

Add the 30 second delay to this general lack of awareness in the audience and it's no wonder tips tend to go from "maybe you could try this, like this and this" to "STOP SUCKING SO MUCH SCRUBSACK".

[Lysander]

I'm trying very hard not to buy Dark Souls right away. I think it might go on sale on the twenty-fifth when Dark Souls 2 is available for download.

Dang, watching you guys on twitch is making me want to buy things. Graham playing Res 4 makes me want to hunt down a copy of the Wii version.

[MadWaltz]

You can learn what poise means by changing the number with different armor and observing how gameplay changes. It is also helpful that the word literally means balance. Stat scaling is learned by watching the damage change as you level, as well as remembering what the stat descriptions said.

I can see where you're coming from, but the problem is that even to the most observant player, when the player figures out the mechanics is going to be left up to chance, creating an unnecessarily wonky difficulty curve. Sure, the player might notice that they don't get stunned by certain attacks anymore after they change their armor. But a player starting as, say, a pyromancer might very well stick to light, 0 poise armors for quite a while to maintain the fast roll, and therefore not have an opportunity to notice the change. Also, some things are impossible to figure out; you would never, ever know that held humanity ups enemy drop rates without looking it up.

You know I've always said Demon's Souls is a better game, but never really figured out why Dark Souls is the one that got all the hype, even though they're pretty much the same.

While overall I think Dark Souls is the better game, I've always thought that Demon's Souls had better atmosphere than Dark Souls did. It's certainly a lot bleaker; pretty much everywhere you go in Demon's feels like a once great place that is now horribly fallen into ruin (except the swamp, which is just a horrible, horrible place). Dark Souls, while still good, just felt more generic to me. For instance, the guys you fight in the Valley of Defilement in Demon's souls are poor, plague victims banished to the swamp gone mad. In Dark souls, the trolls and guys you fight in Blightown are...just trolls and guys, as far as I know. I don't think they have any special significance.


Dark Souls's atmosphere is good too, but in a somewhat different way. Demon's Souls's wasn't as metroidvania style (it had a central hub town where you could warp to the 5 levels). Dark Souls is nice because you get a sense of how each place is connected and therefore a sense of having gotten somewhere and a far greater sense of discovery. Also, the sound quality and graphics are much improved over Demon's.

And gameplay-wise, Dark Souls is way better. They removed pretty much everything I thought was unnecessarily tedious in Demon's Souls, and made a lot of strategies and builds actually viable. If you want to play a heavily armored dude in Demon's, for instance, you're pretty much out of luck, because heavy armor is fairly awful by the end.

[Canageek]

One note: There are a lot of players who try to play nethack without or with minimal spoilers. There is one legendary player who beat the game without spoilers and documented here experience. On the other hand nethack lets you take detailed notes, has built in mechanisms to learn the mechanics (wand of probing, stethoscope, potion of enlightenment, see conditions on death). Even with this, the person who beat it unspoiled is legendary.

[Kapol]

A few thoughts on Bulletstorm from my perspective:

As I've mentioned, I actually liked Bulletstorm's story. It's not good. It's actually fairly mediocre at best. But I think it's fine for the purpose it serves. I did like the details that were in it. Convicts went nuts, formed tribes. You were an asshole, still are an asshole, and continue to be an asshole. The 'redemption' thing was overbearing. But it didn't feel like the worst thing in the game. I do agree there were consistency issues. It's fine for gameplay I feel, but the fact the incidental dialogue was normally goofy compared to the scenes is pretty jarring.

I actually like Triska. Mostly because she's not like 'I hate men, and I don't need no help, etc.' She just very specifically doesn't like you and your friend. She thinks you're both genocidal asshats. And to be fair, you are that too. She stopped being as much of an ass at the end when she found out that Serano was using her too. I also like that Main character and her weren't a thing at the end. They were friends, but not really much of a couple. She also came at a time when that 'strong girl' model wasn't as heavily used. I do understand why Alex found her such a headache though, especially since it came RIGHT after Thief.

For the glitches... I honestly don't know. I know Ch3m1kal mentioned in the chat that he hadn't had any issues like that, and I know I hadn't either. It kind of seems like the LRL curse acting up again. Like Cam's issue with Xcom. Or it could be that they're running Windows 8 and Windows 8 is just poop. Though I think there were only two actual game-breaking bugs from memory (the 'door' issue and the dam issue)

All that said, I think the game WOULD have been much more fun with Alex's suggestions. Even though I liked the story, and I do feel like most games should have some kind of story, however small, I think that just going full-hog with the thing would have been much better. It's just sad that we can't really get a big AAA game like that due to the way the gaming industry works right now. And I can't really speak against any of the complaints Alex had with the game either. Those are legitimate issues.

One thing I do want to say though that applies to all streamers, even beyond LRL, is that if you're not enjoying a game or are actively getting frustrated/pissed off, it's better to stop than force yourself through it. I don't think that forcing a person to continue a game they don't enjoy is good. Like, I know it's happened at least a couple other times, and each time it just feels better to step away from that game. If it means coming back to it later and finishing it or even just abandoning the game for good, that's fine. The game doesn't even have to be bad to have this problem. Just playing a game for so long when there's even a slight by grating issue with it can get tiring.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know that seeing someone 'plow' through something just so people can see the end is normally worse than if it's just dropped and they just play something fun. (As a note, Harvest Moon is also falling under this category at this point I feel.)

All that said, I'm glad that there were parts of the game that Alex enjoyed. It's just too bad that those parts ended with him being so sick of the game. I hope it was, at the very least, worth playing for what good there was.

[Alex Steacy]

I think I mostly tilt at squandered potential, which is why Thief made me so mad.

That and not being able to see where I'm being shot at.