Feminism general thread

[AdmiralMemo]

Saying that you don't have the time to look up statistics does not give you a pass for making generalized statements. How do you know that your generalizations aren't from negative stereotypes? If you going to voice your opinions please give the rest of us the respect of doing some research to back up your statements.

I've seen you called out on this numerous times. It shouldn't be up to me to do your fact checking for you.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one, but not eternal benefit of the doubt. Give the man some time. We're all busy people. If he (or anyone else in the thread) comes up with back-up for their positions, then fair game. If it doesn't surface within a reasonable amount of time, though, that's when you call it into question.

[Matt]

quick fly-by post.

Generally speaking, (and yes, this is another unsourced claim, because I really just don't have the time or the interest anymore to go track down the corroborating reports) it's on;y when you consider all custody cases that men appear to get the short end of the stick.

When men fight for sloe custody, they tend to be awarded it about 50% of the time (some studies actually show that men are awarded sole custody more often than women).

The relevant point is when they fight for it.

Men fight for sole custody at a rate considerably lower than that of women, and as such, on the whole, women receive custody more frequently.

So, in fact, it may well be a question of sussing out the social reasons why men are less likely to fight for sole custody than one of addressing legal inequality in the system which may not actually exist in the way the "sexist against men' narrative typically asserts that it does.

-m

Saying that you don't have the time to look up statistics does not give you a pass for making generalized statements. How do you know that your generalizations aren't from negative stereotypes? If you going to voice your opinions please give the rest of us the respect of doing some research to back up your statements.

I've seen you called out on this numerous times. It shouldn't be up to me to do your fact checking for you.

In both cases where I have made an assertion of the sort above, the claim has been specific in nature - not generalized. If you doubt the claim, and you care enough to do so, you are welcome to further investigate.

Additionally, in both cases, I have openly acknowledged that my claim has been unsourced.

If you decide you want to disregard my assertion on account of the fact that I haven't sourced it? Great, go ahead, entirely your prerogative.

just kindly climb off your high-horse.

-m

[Trisha Lynn]

Saying that you don't have the time to look up statistics does not give you a pass for making generalized statements. How do you know that your generalizations aren't from negative stereotypes? If you going to voice your opinions please give the rest of us the respect of doing some research to back up your statements.

I've seen you called out on this numerous times. It shouldn't be up to me to do your fact checking for you.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one, but not eternal benefit of the doubt. Give the man some time. We're all busy people. If he (or anyone else in the thread) comes up with back-up for their positions, then fair game. If it doesn't surface within a reasonable amount of time, though, that's when you call it into question.

Well, to get the most unbiased result, I would start with a sampling of filed "Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law" for divorces, about one randomly selected case per month for the last forty years, one from each U.S. state. That's about 24,000 cases to read and find out what the custody and visitation rules were as decreed by the judge and agreed by both parties.

Then, I'd go through those cases to see if there were any other motions, appeals, filings, etc. which amended those rights. And then to see if any restraining orders were filed, any further criminal action taken/ruled upon, etc. Then, you'd have lots of unbiased statistics upon which to make claims, probably with a lot of footnotes appended to the statistics.

If anyone from this forum or elsewhere would like to fund this study, I'd be happy to be the point person for the research and do all the collating/coordinating. Until then, anyone who digs up research is going to have that research be tainted as "biased" and this discussion point is going to go nowhere.

But yeah, I'm interested to know where you read this statistic, too, and how it goes with what I wrote. Because in my personal experience, even the dudes on the opposing side from my boss' clients wanted sole custody or increased visitation.


Trisha Lynn
...yes, all the dudes...

[Gamercow]

Regarding "Extreme Feminists" I'm just going to leave this here, the most excellent "Straw Feminists" comic from the most excellent Kate Beaton:

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

Regarding genderless pronouns: I personally try to use "they" and "their". It flows more easily for me, and is less confusing(with respect to singular/plural) than one would think. I don't mind zie/hir, I just don't personally use them.

[Matt]

Trisha Lynn: for the sake of the argument I did a cursory search just to see what came up. I haven't dug deep into papers or anything yet, (and haven't located the source of my original claim) but the results turned up by Divorcepeers.com (a divorce stats tracking site [which I have admittedly not vetted for credibility]) at least appears to split the difference between your claim and mine.

Relevant Data:




Notes:

82% of mothers and 33% of fathers desire sole custody of their children.

97% of mothers and 68% of fathers desire any kind of custody of their children.

only 19% of custody disputes are resolved with the involvement of a 3rd party, by mediation, or trial.

only 4% of custody disputes are litigated, and of those, only 1.5% complete litigation.

Of the 9% of custody disputes that go to mediation or trial:

in Mediation:

Mothers retain some form of custody 89% of cases
Fathers retain some form of custody 31% of cases

In Trial:

Mothers retain some form of custody 84% of cases
Fathers retain some form of custody 51% of cases


So, until I have a chance to do some more research, I'll modify what I said slightly (though the point of what I was saying is still vaild).

Men are considerably less likely to desire sole custody of their children, (though it appears they are more likely to desire joint custody).


When fathers litigate a custody dispute, they retain some form of custody in 51% of cases.

So, admittedly, not quite what I asserted in the first place, but still backing the same point: what we may want to ask is what are the social factors that lead men to desire custody of their children at a (considerably) lower rate than women?


-m

edit: pro-tip to divorcing fathers, apparently: you have a better chance at trial than in mediation.

edit 2: memo, I'll dig into your request for citation too, but that one is going to require more case building, by nature of the fact that it gets to motivation for sexual assault.

[J_S_Bach]

Here's just a wild speculation from an anecdote my mother once told me when we were discussing issues men face in family court, she recently received her Masters in family law and was awarded a place on the Queen's Council:

Many father's do not request sole custody of their children because there is a stigma that women are better care givers thus their representatives advice against it.

Perhaps what we have is a chicken and the egg scenario, men are less likely to fight for sole custody because they have been told it's harder for them to be awarded it. Or it could just be that some men are uncomfortable with the idea of child care because of lasting effects of a patriarchal society.

[Matt]

Perhaps what we have is a chicken and the egg scenario, men are less likely to fight for sole custody because they have been told it's harder for them to be awarded it. Or it could just be that some men are uncomfortable with the idea of child care because of lasting effects of a patriarchal society.

I think both of these are likely contributors, among others.

Fathers appear also, on average, just to be less involved in child-rearing. As noted in this review of a pew survey, even involved fathers spend about half as much time caring for their children as mothers do, (though this represents a considerable improvement over previous eras). The relevant data in that article is about halfway down, under category title, "More Time Spent, But Fewer Fathers in the Home"





-m

[KylieAnne]

Saying that you don't have the time to look up statistics does not give you a pass for making generalized statements. How do you know that your generalizations aren't from negative stereotypes? If you going to voice your opinions please give the rest of us the respect of doing some research to back up your statements.

I've seen you called out on this numerous times. It shouldn't be up to me to do your fact checking for you.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one, but not eternal benefit of the doubt. Give the man some time. We're all busy people. If he (or anyone else in the thread) comes up with back-up for their positions, then fair game. If it doesn't surface within a reasonable amount of time, though, that's when you call it into question.

I guess I've been riled up by his generally arrogant and self-righteous tone especially when it came to debating different philosophies and seeing that over the past three days whenever Matt has been ask to cite a claim an excuse of "I'm on my phone" has been given and perhaps it's been coincidence but one would think that if you've been asked to cite your sources before you would save to writing an opinion (that he had the forethought to know someone would ask to cite his information) for a time when he could do some research and back up his claims. Being a moderator doesn't give him carte-blanche to assume people will take him a face value, just the tone I was getting, my apologies if that wasn't the intention.

[Trisha Lynn]

Going into the social side of the custody debate, if a person doesn't try to get some form of custody or visitation, it doesn't look good to a judge or mediator. Whether or not the person actually wants to take care of the kids on their own (or until they find another partner), it's in the party's best interest to at least look like they care by asking for sole custody or increased visitation. So, when papers are initially filed, there's always going to be a request for custody and visitation.

It's over time when the party's motivation and endurance (and money to pay for their attorneys) gets stretched. If one party is the monied spouse, they can afford to file motion after motion, submit reams of evidence, etc. And until recently, the monied spouse was almost always the male partner (in a heterosexual marriage, but we didn't need to really clarify that, but I'm doing so anyway...).

I've heard of cases where one party decides to give in and let their claim for sole custody or increased visitation drop because the person has run out of the resources to endure the protracted legal fight. A person can only take out so many loans, borrow only so much money from their parents/family/friends until their "war chest" is exhausted. And if they can't pay their attorney or find an attorney who will work pro bono, they are screwed.

And I think that may address this comment from Matt: "[P]ro-tip to divorcing fathers, apparently: you have a better chance at trial than in mediation." Because historically, male partners in heterosexual relationships where there are children have been the monied spouse, they know and their attorneys know that if they keep fighting for custody and/or increased visitation, they're eventually going to get it.

It's up to a good judge (and good court-appointed children's attorneys and court-appointed therapists) to be able to determine whether or not either party actually deserves to get the custody because as Shukes said, they're all about what's in the best interest of the child. At least that's how it should work in a perfect world.


Trisha Lynn
..."attorney-client confidentiality" means I can't tell the best anecdotal examples I have...

...Matt: also, it's "Trisha"...

[Trisha Lynn]

Or it could just be that some men are uncomfortable with the idea of child care because of lasting effects of a patriarchal society.

Which is complete and utter shite, and I feel bad for you dudes out there who have been told or seen over and over again in the media, etc., that dads are hilariously inept at parenting. You guys should be more angry about that than you are. I know you guys can't speak for all dudes, but why do you think that's so?


Trisha Lynn
...my dad is freaking awesome...

[Matt]

...Matt: also, it's "Trisha"...

fffff-

fixed.

-m

[Matt]

I guess I've been riled up by his generally arrogant and self-righteous tone especially when it came to debating different philosophies and seeing that over the past three days whenever Matt has been ask to cite a claim an excuse of "I'm on my phone" has been given and perhaps it's been coincidence but one would think that if you've been asked to cite your sources before you would save to writing an opinion (that he had the forethought to know someone would ask to cite his information) for a time when he could do some research and back up his claims. Being a moderator doesn't give him carte-blanche to assume people will take him a face value, just the tone I was getting, my apologies if that wasn't the intention.

Just, you know, for the record - each instance of my being asked to provide a source was when I chimed in to call another assumed and un-cited assertion into question, and in one of those cases I was arguing against my own side of the debate, so I sense that there's not exactly an equivalent standard being upheld here.


-m

[Metcarfre]

Or it could just be that some men are uncomfortable with the idea of child care because of lasting effects of a patriarchal society.

Which is complete and utter shite, and I feel bad for you dudes out there who have been told or seen over and over again in the media, etc., that dads are hilariously inept at parenting. You guys should be more angry about that than you are. I know you guys can't speak for all dudes, but why do you think that's so?


Trisha Lynn
...my dad is freaking awesome...

Like, outside of every popular culture portrayal of a father being a bumbling idiot (seriously), there's one very tiny non-patriarchal biological thing at play I've learned of.

I have tons of friends having babies these days, and one thing comes up again and again. As much as many of them try their best to help and contribute to their wives/babies... there's really not much shit you can do from conception to like one year or so. The mother grows this thing inside her, and the best you can do is say, "uh, maybe that's enough poutine, hun?" During birth, you hold her hand while this terrible, awful, amazing thing happens. Then in infancy, the child is entirely nurtured from her body - small wonder it dgaf about that weird boobless chump that sometimes walks in.

I guess I'm saying we're kind of set up to be thumb-twiddlers by default. So you have to make an effort to contribute.

(not that this excuses anything/etc, just a musing of mine)

[Matt]

I know you guys can't speak for all dudes, but why do you think that's so?

In part, I think Met is certainly onto something.

That said, I speculate that patriarchy benefits from maintaining the narrative that child care is "women's work", even if it means throwing men's competency as fathers under the bus to do so.

-m

[Trisha Lynn]

I have tons of friends having babies these days, and one thing comes up again and again. As much as many of them try their best to help and contribute to their wives/babies... there's really not much shit you can do from conception to like one year or so. The mother grows this thing inside her, and the best you can do is say, "uh, maybe that's enough poutine, hun?" During birth, you hold her hand while this terrible, awful, amazing thing happens. Then in infancy, the child is entirely nurtured from her body - small wonder it dgaf about that weird boobless chump that sometimes walks in.

I guess I'm saying we're kind of set up to be thumb-twiddlers by default. So you have to make an effort to contribute.

(not that this excuses anything/etc, just a musing of mine)

The fact that this thinking has been institutionalized within you is troubling. Here are things that I think men can do to help with rearing a baby from conception to newborn that aren't "thumb-twiddly" things and actually really damn important:

After pregnancy has been confirmed until birth:

* Start up and maintain a financial savings plan for the baby and the hospital stay for the birth.
* Plan out where the baby's going to live in the house/apartment. If this means you have to move, get going on that plan and have it be ready and done two months before the baby's due date.
* Go with your partner to every pre-natal health appointment and learn about what she needs in order to keep up her health.
* Help her follow the health directives. If this means that you end up going onto her diet, DO IT.
* Take over several of the household chores that she normally is responsible for.
* This includes learning how to cook the meals that she normally prepares that you like. In fact, if you don't know how to cook meals you both enjoy before you decide to have a baby, start learning that shite NOW.
* Tell and show her how much you love both the baby and her every day.

After birth:

* Take care of all the financial arrangements from the hospital.
* Remember those household chores? Keep doing these things until after the baby is two or so and/or you have a nanny/babysitter within shouting distance.
* Do these things half of the time they come up: changing diapers, feeding, playing, night-time feedings.
* At least once a weekend, stay at home with the baby while your partner goes out and does things for herself.

Once the kid starts being able to feed itself, sit up, communicate in words, etc., you'll be able to transition some of the household chores back to how you agreed they'd be before you had the baby.

Isn't that a nice list of "manly" things a dude can do to help during his partner's pregnancy?


Trisha Lynn
...and I've never even had a pregnancy scare before...

[J_S_Bach]

Or it could just be that some men are uncomfortable with the idea of child care because of lasting effects of a patriarchal society.

Which is complete and utter shite, and I feel bad for you dudes out there who have been told or seen over and over again in the media, etc., that dads are hilariously inept at parenting. You guys should be more angry about that than you are. I know you guys can't speak for all dudes, but why do you think that's so?


Trisha Lynn
...my dad is freaking awesome...

Like, outside of every popular culture portrayal of a father being a bumbling idiot (seriously), there's one very tiny non-patriarchal biological thing at play I've learned of.

I have tons of friends having babies these days, and one thing comes up again and again. As much as many of them try their best to help and contribute to their wives/babies... there's really not much shit you can do from conception to like one year or so. The mother grows this thing inside her, and the best you can do is say, "uh, maybe that's enough poutine, hun?" During birth, you hold her hand while this terrible, awful, amazing thing happens. Then in infancy, the child is entirely nurtured from her body - small wonder it dgaf about that weird boobless chump that sometimes walks in.

I guess I'm saying we're kind of set up to be thumb-twiddlers by default. So you have to make an effort to contribute.

(not that this excuses anything/etc, just a musing of mine)

I'm a new uncle and I know uncles are not necessarily known for raising their nieces but I am very close to my brother-in-law who is the father. I don't think he's had time to twiddle his thumbs since his daughter has been born.

The idea that men are no help in the early stages of childhood is a prime example of institutionalized patriarchy. Sure the mother had this person growing inside of her for nine months but that doesn't mean the father was on vacation.

The worst part of this is that we was too afraid to ask for a paternity leave for fear of losing his job, even for a few weeks.

[Trisha Lynn]

The worst part of this is that we was too afraid to ask for a paternity leave for fear of losing his job, even for a few weeks.

I quickly looked into this and DAMN, you guys in New Brunswick are screwed because family leave only covers the pregnant female. That BITES and is one more reason why men need to fight for feminism. Isn't there an over-arching Canadian federal law that covers that?

[J_S_Bach]

The worst part of this is that we was too afraid to ask for a paternity leave for fear of losing his job, even for a few weeks.

I quickly looked into this and DAMN, you guys in New Brunswick are screwed because family leave only covers the pregnant female. That BITES and is one more reason why men need to fight for feminism. Isn't there an over-arching Canadian federal law that covers that?

Not being an expecting father I have not looked into this in depth. As far as I understand it Canadian government prefers to let the provinces and territories handle most of the labor laws. The best source I could find was this http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/maternity_parental.shtml#parental However when I was browsing it the language is very vague and loose. Businesses can easily find loop holes to let a father go that have nothing to do with request of paternity leave. However, despite some of Canada's flaws for helping new parents there is universal healthcare, that's a huge win.

[Metcarfre]

I have tons of friends having babies these days, and one thing comes up again and again. As much as many of them try their best to help and contribute to their wives/babies... there's really not much shit you can do from conception to like one year or so. The mother grows this thing inside her, and the best you can do is say, "uh, maybe that's enough poutine, hun?" During birth, you hold her hand while this terrible, awful, amazing thing happens. Then in infancy, the child is entirely nurtured from her body - small wonder it dgaf about that weird boobless chump that sometimes walks in.

I guess I'm saying we're kind of set up to be thumb-twiddlers by default. So you have to make an effort to contribute.

(not that this excuses anything/etc, just a musing of mine)

The fact that this thinking has been institutionalized within you is troubling. Here are things that I think men can do to help with rearing a baby from conception to newborn that aren't "thumb-twiddly" things and actually really damn important:

After pregnancy has been confirmed until birth:
tips

OK yes well yes, I was using hyperbole and euphemism. I'm aware there's things a father can do to support a mother and baby during the pregnancy and infancy. But those things aren't utterly vital in the same way that, y'know, gestating and nursing a child is. And that should at least be acknowledged.

[Trisha Lynn]

OK yes well yes, I was using hyperbole and euphemism. I'm aware there's things a father can do to support a mother and baby during the pregnancy and infancy. But those things aren't utterly vital in the same way that, y'know, gestating and nursing a child is. And that should at least be acknowledged.

I vehemently disagree. Keeping your female partner sane enough not to slip into depression post-partum is vitally essential. And a male partner (or non-nursing female partner, you get the idea) can totally help stave off the depression by making it easier for her to be a mother but not over-coddling her to the point of helplessness. This is indeed a very manly thing to do.

Do you see what I'm trying to do here, Met? I'm trying to get you to change your mind about a man's role as a parent. The fact that you retreated into stating that you were using hyperbole while still stating that these things aren't "utterly vital" is part of the problem. If I can get you, an individual person in this discussion, to see and internalize this changed idea of what a man can do to be a better father, we will have both conquered one small bit of the Patriarchy and the buffoonish sitcom idea that fathers are inept at parenthood. And if you can embody that to others, and get them to accept this changed ideal, that's even better.

That's how we fight these sorts of problems on a societal level.


Trisha Lynn
...fighting and befriending the Man is an equal opportunity problem...

[Metcarfre]

I cannot, physically, gestate a human child within me. I do not, physically, possess the mechanism to nourish a human baby-child from my body. Can we at least admit that?

[Darkobra]

I have tons of friends having babies these days, and one thing comes up again and again. As much as many of them try their best to help and contribute to their wives/babies... there's really not much shit you can do from conception to like one year or so. The mother grows this thing inside her, and the best you can do is say, "uh, maybe that's enough poutine, hun?" During birth, you hold her hand while this terrible, awful, amazing thing happens. Then in infancy, the child is entirely nurtured from her body - small wonder it dgaf about that weird boobless chump that sometimes walks in.

I guess I'm saying we're kind of set up to be thumb-twiddlers by default. So you have to make an effort to contribute.

(not that this excuses anything/etc, just a musing of mine)

The fact that this thinking has been institutionalized within you is troubling. Here are things that I think men can do to help with rearing a baby from conception to newborn that aren't "thumb-twiddly" things and actually really damn important:

After pregnancy has been confirmed until birth:

* Start up and maintain a financial savings plan for the baby and the hospital stay for the birth.
* Plan out where the baby's going to live in the house/apartment. If this means you have to move, get going on that plan and have it be ready and done two months before the baby's due date.
* Go with your partner to every pre-natal health appointment and learn about what she needs in order to keep up her health.
* Help her follow the health directives. If this means that you end up going onto her diet, DO IT.
* Take over several of the household chores that she normally is responsible for.
* This includes learning how to cook the meals that she normally prepares that you like. In fact, if you don't know how to cook meals you both enjoy before you decide to have a baby, start learning that shite NOW.
* Tell and show her how much you love both the baby and her every day.

After birth:

* Take care of all the financial arrangements from the hospital.
* Remember those household chores? Keep doing these things until after the baby is two or so and/or you have a nanny/babysitter within shouting distance.
* Do these things half of the time they come up: changing diapers, feeding, playing, night-time feedings.
* At least once a weekend, stay at home with the baby while your partner goes out and does things for herself.

Once the kid starts being able to feed itself, sit up, communicate in words, etc., you'll be able to transition some of the household chores back to how you agreed they'd be before you had the baby.

Isn't that a nice list of "manly" things a dude can do to help during his partner's pregnancy?


Trisha Lynn
...and I've never even had a pregnancy scare before...

You know, I've never got anyone pregnant yet and I actually think about all these things quite often!

Being a father doesn't mean you sit on your arse and let her do all the work. You have a FAMILY to look after. You are the provider, the partner and if you're damn good at what you do, a worrier! You look after the baby, you look after your partner and you damn well make an effort to look after yourself in that mix too! Something many men in the first four years of parenting sometimes forget!

Yes there are terrible fathers. Yes they can do lasting damage. But there are also terrible mothers just as there are great mothers and fathers!

That is your child. That is your lover. Take pride in something that is a part of you and someone who is your missing half that fully completes you.

Hell, even take your baby to the park for a walk, take enough milk and baby changing stuff and show them the ducks! Give your lady a few hours to herself! You'd not believe how much that can help! Plus you get a little alone time with your child and some ducks!

And you know what? I worry about that list long before I even have a baby on the way and am STILL scared I won't be a good enough father!

[Trisha Lynn]

I cannot, physically, gestate a human child within me. I do not, physically, possess the mechanism to nourish a human baby-child from my body. Can we at least admit that?

That's a non-starter. I don't even know why you're bringing it up. But if you want a more direct response:

there's really not much shit you can do from conception to like one year or so.

I have definitely proven that this is not true.

The mother grows this thing inside her, and the best you can do is say, "uh, maybe that's enough poutine, hun?"

Again, proven not to be true.

During birth, you hold her hand while this terrible, awful, amazing thing happens.

You also get her to the hospital, read and sign all the damn forms, greet the loved ones who want to wish her well after the baby is born. You buy her presents to cheer her up when she's exhausted between contractions. You back her up when she says she does (or doesn't) want an epidural and make sure that the medical professionals heed your wishes. You help her focus on her breathing, keep her spirits up. That's what fathers do.

Then in infancy, the child is entirely nurtured from her body - small wonder it dgaf about that weird boobless chump that sometimes walks in.

First of all, some women can't or don't want to breast-feed. So you can share in feedings with formula. If she's breast-feeding, she can pump breast milk to be saved for later when the baby wakes up at 3 am, she's goddamn exhausted, and you can feed the baby and start to bond with it and go from just being a "boobless chump" to being a father who loves his child.

Met, please just come with me on this journey. Discard your preconceptions. Lower those defenses.

Yeah, you can't physically bear a child. Doesn't mean you can't help raise one in the way a mother can.


Trisha Lynn
...walk through this door with me...

[Metcarfre]

I cannot, physically, gestate a human child within me. I do not, physically, possess the mechanism to nourish a human baby-child from my body. Can we at least admit that?

That's a non-starter. I don't even know why you're bringing it up. But if you want a more direct response:

Yeah, you can't physically bear a child. Doesn't mean you can't help raise one in the way a mother can.

YES, OBVIOUSLY. But can you at least acknowledge that there is a biological difference in the roles of the male and female human in birthing a child? Please?

[Trisha Lynn]

I cannot, physically, gestate a human child within me. I do not, physically, possess the mechanism to nourish a human baby-child from my body. Can we at least admit that?

That's a non-starter. I don't even know why you're bringing it up. But if you want a more direct response:

Yeah, you can't physically bear a child. Doesn't mean you can't help raise one in the way a mother can.

YES, OBVIOUSLY. But can you at least acknowledge that there is a biological difference in the roles of the male and female human in birthing a child? Please?

Again, I'm unclear as to why you think it's important to make this distinction. Are you trying to say that because men aren't biologically capable of carrying a child inside them, they are also unable to emotionally bond with and care for children and that their contribution doesn't matter? If so, you do your fellow men a great disservice. (This was overly snarky, and I apologize for it.)

Is there a way you can rephrase what you mean to say? Because I can tell you have a point to make, but I'm not seeing it and I don't want to completely mischaracterize your words.


Trisha Lynn
...or put mine at your fingertips...