New Doctor Who (Possible Spoilers)

[Keab42]

River is pretty resourceful, and again The Doctor is supposed to be a big part of her life so that probable meant that she could remember him, or remember enough to know that Amy could save him, she hasn't been exposed to time energy the way Amy has.

[korri]

I keep thinking that perhaps River isn't quite human... also, (I think) she hasn't quite gone through all the stuff with the Doctor yet. Meaning this River is younger then the one we saw in Silence in the Library.

On the Tennant vs Smith thing, I think I like them in different ways. Smith has successfully made the doctor his own, and I will always love Tennant, but I don't think I could pick a favorite...

[Ottoman]

But even if she knew that, how did she get to the wedding? 'Cause she didn't have the Vortex Manipulator.

Presumably because she (and the others) were at that date in the alternate history during the reset, and so ended up there in the right history, as well.

I mean, uh, what do you mean by "excessive"?

I mean huge CG armies of bad guys popping out of nowhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Or, making the master fly and shoot lightning, seemingly unnecessarily. Fun, but not always the best way to go about a finale.

Is Matt Smith a good Doctor?

Yes. I don't think he had a single bad performance, and through the series he's really grown into the role. Not too angsty, not too serious, and quite good as an actor in general.

Is he a suitable replacement to Tenant?

That depends on exactly how one interprets that. He's absolutely a suitable replacement as the Doctor, but not really a replacement for Tennant. Which is good; I would have hated to see their characters be the same. I still think of Tennant as 'the Doctor', but I've enjoyed this series just as much as the previous few, sometimes more. Partly, this is because I identify more with Smith, and there are several scenes in which he really reminds me of myself. Given the shoes he had to fill, and the tumult of changing writers, producer, and so on, I think Smith did an excellent job making his character. If he sticks around for a couple more series, I may well end up thinking of him as 'the Doctor', instead.
Bow ties are cool.
Sooo. . . yeah, I think that's a 'mission accomplished' for Smith.

[Jillers]

I keep thinking that perhaps River isn't quite human... also, (I think) she hasn't quite gone through all the stuff with the Doctor yet. Meaning this River is younger then the one we saw in Silence in the Library.

Well, of course - Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is when she dies - so every time we see River, it's before Silence in the Library (a nice mirror there - the first time The Doctor meets River will be the last time Rover sees the Doctor).

Also, the Doctor did talk to River when he was in the Pandorica, there's a good chance that she pulled a Final Fantasy 8, following the Doctor's instructions, and just believed really really hard that she'd wind up in amy's time.

But I do agree, it seems to me that River is not quite human... or if she is, she's something really really special.

Now, to the question of Matt Smith and Doctor.
I've said it earlier in this thread, I latched onto him almost immediately as The Doctor. Is he a suitable replacement is the wrong question to ask. He's not really replacing Tennant is he? Elevensies is different from The Tenny, as is the whole feel of the show. There is a definite shift from the interneal struggle that Tennant's Doctor dealt with (RTD seemed to revel in throwing things at The Tenny for hiim to internally struggle with, probably because he was such a fan favorite, who didn't want to see him deal with The Master, Cybermen, Sarah Jane?) vs. Smith's Doctor being not so... emo - his conflicts are external, he reacts, and instead of beating us over the head with him being the Last of the Time Lords, and all that implies, Smith's Doctor only gets sullen from time to time (show, don't tell).

Is Smith a better Doctor than Tennant? No. But neither was Tennant a better Doctor than Smith. They are different. And awesome in their own respects.

I think a lot of what this boils down to is whose writing do you like more? Moffat or RTD? And I am a Moffat fan. A foffet? So, yeah...

[Digital Dolphin]

I'm going to spoiler tag all of it

epocalypse, Jillers, and Ottoman:

I think what it comes down to (as was pointed out) is that I just really found the whole plot concept for this season to be stupid. For me it's like doing a really poor job of explaining for 10 or so episodes, that if you REALLY believe it, up will become down, and vice versa.

One of my biggest issues with this season, aside from the decision to just re-write everything as needed, is the fact that Amy Pond has been written to be more important than The Doctor. This was clear starting with I think it was the second episode this season? The one where they were riding the space whale, and Amy was able to out think the doctor and stop him from killing the whale (a VERY un-Doctorly decision!). It continued on throughout the series where Amy continued as the Wesley Crusher like savior (no disrespect intended to Wil Wheaton, and I actually loved Wesley Crusher's character when I was younger ).

But I digress.

The long and the short of it is that this season only worked if you can accept the line about the universe being big and sometimes miracles happen, and that from day 1 of season 5, it was planned to use a "miracle" to resolve a season based on a series of impossible paradoxes.

[Gordon Fearman]

I mean, uh, what do you mean by "excessive"?

I mean huge CG armies of bad guys popping out of nowhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Or, making the master fly and shoot lightning, seemingly unnecessarily. Fun, but not always the best way to go about a finale.

The End of Time doesn't have a huge CG army.

Is Matt Smith a good Doctor?

Yes. I don't think he had a single bad performance...

Have you seen "Victory of the Daleks"?

[Keab42]

The long and the short of it is that this season only worked if you can accept the line about the universe being big and sometimes miracles happen, and that from day 1 of season 5, it was planned to use a "miracle" to resolve a season based on a series of impossible paradoxes.

Hi, welcome to Doctor Who.

One thing we need to remember when critiquing the revived version of Who (ie Eccleston onwards) is that the target audience is pretty much children.

They add adult themes etc, because they know that adults do watch, but ultimately they try to present them and the plot in a manner which makes sense for children. By which metric miracles are an acceptable solution.

Also you have to expect the timey-wimey reset because killing companions etc is a big no-no. The kiddy-winks might not like it.

as a group of well educated adults we see the flaws and the holes in the plot, because we have a lot of reference material to compare it to, but at the end of the day they write something to appeal to children and whether we like it or not it does mean that sometimes it comes across as simplistic or certain elements are left unexplained.

I also think it's very telling that Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey has become so well used in reference to Who. It's now become a plot device in it's own right. Need to hand-wave an explanation, no problem, WWTW and bob's your male parental sibling.

[Digital Dolphin]

The long and the short of it is that this season only worked if you can accept the line about the universe being big and sometimes miracles happen, and that from day 1 of season 5, it was planned to use a "miracle" to resolve a season based on a series of impossible paradoxes.

Hi, welcome to Doctor Who.

One thing we need to remember when critiquing the revived version of Who (ie Eccleston onwards) is that the target audience is pretty much children.

They add adult themes etc, because they know that adults do watch, but ultimately they try to present them and the plot in a manner which makes sense for children. By which metric miracles are an acceptable solution.

Also you have to expect the timey-wimey reset because killing companions etc is a big no-no. The kiddy-winks might not like it.

as a group of well educated adults we see the flaws and the holes in the plot, because we have a lot of reference material to compare it to, but at the end of the day they write something to appeal to children and whether we like it or not it does mean that sometimes it comes across as simplistic or certain elements are left unexplained.

I also think it's very telling that Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey has become so well used in reference to Who. It's now become a plot device in it's own right. Need to hand-wave an explanation, no problem, WWTW and bob's your male parental sibling.

I hate that you are right.

I can say one positive thing about Season 5 of the reboot series though... it's not as bad as the attempted reboot movie that was previously aired on TV. I'll take super happy magic funtime Doctor Who over that still.

Out of curiousity, how many people here are fans of the original series? I started watching Doctor Who at age 2, about 25 years ago. That's also when I attended my first Doctor Who convention.

[Ottoman]

The End of Time doesn't have a huge CG army.

*Ahem*

Or, making the Master fly and shoot lightning, seemingly unnecessarily.

Or, making the Master fly and shoot lightning

Or, making the Master fly and shoot lightning

Anyway.

Out of curiousity, how many people here are fans of the original series?

I've been watching Series 16, The Key To Time, recently, and I've seen a handful of other episodes from various other series. It's very different, to be sure. While it's definitely good, I think either that it doesn't translate too well between generations, or that older fans have nostalgia glasses. To me, a lot of it seems a bit too cheesy and aged. I still enjoy and appreciate it, though. Tom Baker was pretty awesome.

[epocalypse]

I like the original (what I've seen of it, being not british and all) in the same way I like the original Star Trek (perhaps even more so, as the writing was better on who, usually, from a character point of view). However, outside of the oldest episodes, that had that great almost twilight show vibe to them, and a few of the 7th doctor ones, most don't compare to the new series to me, because the production value just has too much difficulty keeping up with the ambitions of the story. With the limitations of the time and TV budget. I think that with the new series the capabilities and tools are being able to keep up with it.

That said, I'm going to go out there and say that in my opinion this is my favorite series as a whole of Doctor Who, and I love all the changes made, and the current direction of the show as more fantastic (fantasy based). That said, it only nearly beats out my previous favorite (Series 3 (primarily because of the second half of the series, except for maybe the final episode, as that deus ex machina is a pretty big and bitter pill to swallow) of the 2005, followed by series 2) and Smith and Tennant are now running parallel for my favorite doctor. Smith will win if the Fez becomes permanent. It's that close.

I think DigiDolph's inner child is dead, and that make me sad.

[Digital Dolphin]

I think DigiDolph's inner child is dead, and that make me sad.

Only MOSTLY dead

[Gordon Fearman]

Or, making the Master fly and shoot lightning, seemingly unnecessarily.

Right. For some reason I was thinking that happened in "Last of the Time Lords". But then I thought about it and was like "ohhhhh."

[Ottoman]

See, I absolutely loved the Master in LotTL; Simm played the part perfectly, and that part was damn well written, IMHO. He was just fun to watch, even when he was being evil.

I feel like he was wasted in The End of Time, though. All that nonsense about shooting lightning and looking like an x-ray half the time seemed silly, and poorly-explained to boot. The character didn't have the same spark, wasn't the same cheerful and demented genius; really, he could have been any generic villain for most of the story. It just didn't seem like there was anything special that Simm could bring to that role.

[Keab42]

I loved Simm as the Master he was the perfect evil counterpart to Tennant, they both had the same energy.

[Snowfire]

In my opinion, Matt Smith has grown a lot over this series. The Doctor he plays has changed and become more solid over time as he's found his own balance and interpretaion of the character. He reminds me of some of the older Doctors in how he acts and I think that's a really nice touch. So my answer is yes, he is a good Doctor.

As to your second question...

I never really bought into the 'Tenant Craze'. He was a good Doctor, but I don't really go beyond that statement. He was probably a big part of the reason Doctor Who is now as popular as it is and for that I am greatful. However, to me he didn't have the same sort of spark as Matt does. I can't really explain it, but there's something about the way Matt portrays the character - that's even more pronounced in parts of the finale - that I really enjoy.

So that is a resounding yes to your second question.

But Elomin...you missed out the most important questions.

Are bow ties now cool?
Will the Doctor try to wear a fez from now on?
(Serious one next)
What could River be that makes her so terrible that a Dalek is frightened of her?

[korri]

I'm thinking River is some kind of part Time Lord. I know the Doctor should be able to sense her, which is why I think she isn't completely a Time Lord, just sorta...

[Jillers]

Are bow ties now cool?
Will the Doctor try to wear a fez from now on?
(Serious one next)
What could River be that makes her so terrible that a Dalek is frightened of her?

Yes.
I hope.

What could River be, or what has she done?

[Ottoman]

I think she isn't completely a Time Lord, just sorta...

One-and-a-half hearts?

[Snowfire]

I think she isn't completely a Time Lord, just sorta...

One-and-a-half hearts?

Hmmm. Possible. I just don't see a Dalek reacting that way to a simple Time Lord. The Dalek begged for mercy from her. I know, I know, we don't know how the Time Lords changed (well we do a bit but not much) but the Daleks always seemed very dismissive of the Time Lords.

The reason I quoted you however is something that came up in conversation with a friend a few days ago. I don't know if she's right or not...but according to what she said (and she's not an inconsiderable Doctor Who geek) there should be at least one/two other Time Lords out there. She also brought up the following point.

The Doctor was a renegade (I believe this is at least nominally correct considering he stole his Tardis). Surely he wasn't the first (or last) to go rouge. And somehow I doubt every Time Lord/Lady would have come flocking back to Gallifrey when the last Time War began. Some of them probably wouldn't have cared.

Anyone know more about this, or is it just pure speculation based on plot holes?

[Ottoman]

It's entirely possible that more exist. However, there's only a limited number of times the writers can use the 'whoops, there was one more all along' trick. I think that having at least one more return is inevitable, but probably not any time soon.

I'm much more interested to see how Jenny comes back. Maybe in a couple of years we'll get a series with her as a companion. That would be amazing. Like Romana, but much more badass.

[Snowfire]

*snickers*

Well, Moffat did specifically request that the ending of that episode be changed so Jenny survived. Take what you want from that.

[Ottoman]

*snickers*

Funny, I was eating one of those just the other day.



Delicious.

EDIT: I'm sorry, did you have a point?

[Dave-O_Boy]

Oh I do hope Jenny comes back sometime in the next season.

[Mister Fiend]

A fez is only cool if it is ALSO wearing a bow tie.

[Gordon Fearman]

I feel like he was wasted in The End of Time, though. All that nonsense about shooting lightning and looking like an x-ray half the time seemed silly, and poorly-explained to boot.

Ottoman, you ignorant slut. It's as well explained as nearly anything else in the serieses. It's more explained than how the hell did the Tardis become unexploded and such. Better explained than how the Daleks keep not dying. And so forth.

The character didn't have the same spark, wasn't the same cheerful and demented genius; really, he could have been any generic villain for most of the story. It just didn't seem like there was anything special that Simm could bring to that role.

Ottoman, you ignorant slut. Wait. I said that already. Uhhhhhh...guess there's no better The Office quote so I'm sticking with it. Way to miss the point entirely. The Master is supposed to be less sophisticated. He's become more animalistic. But he's also become more emotionally (let's say) vulnerable(?). The Master has his guard down which allow him and the Doctor to connect emotionally. And totally heterosexually, I might add. In "The Last of the Time Lords" and previous episodes, the Master spent the entirety taunting the Doctor and that's fine. That's how they normally act. But in "The End of Time" we get a sense of their underlying relationship and their history, topics which were only ever explored in novels, I believe. His behaviour also allows for a convincing plot, as it explains why his plan was so hastily carried out. The old Master would spend months on an elaborate plan and that wouldn't really fly so well.

Look, this is kinda hard to explain, so I'll come back at you with something a little more convincing later Ottoman.