This thread is so gay

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Elomin Sha
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 26 Jun 2015, 14:22

Problem with that is it's still in the Bible not just the Torah. Not wanting to put words in your mouth Merry it read to me that you think the Old Testament shouldn't be regarded. That's where the 10 (plus hundreds of other) commandments are a big cornerstone.
Going a bit too far ahead: if you throw that out it doesn't stop picking and choosing. Besides Jesus had said that no letter of the law would be changed.

Original Sin in my opinion is bollocks because it is tantamount of guilting the person who had nothing to do with the original crime. Your parent murdered someone you are a murder through guilt of association.

Existing example would be North Korea and other dictatorships, Western countries aren't immune from this with the backlash over 9/11 by morons saying every muslim is a terrorist (my grandfather on my mother's side thinks each one is a terrorist in waiting forgetting how many caucasians cause similiar issues). Or in the various hashtage movements.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 14:24

The word "alone" was unwise.

There is a drastic change in tone between the testaments however.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 26 Jun 2015, 14:27

Different writers will do that.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Jun 2015, 15:32

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:But... it is and we are. Sin is a part of us, and if you don't think it is, then I would like to hear your thoughts on "the flesh" and "the outward man" and "original sin."
So how does this apply to homosexuality? In your opinion.
If we posit that homosexuality is a sinful desire, for the sake of argument, it should be treated exactly the same as all other sins. We as people are wired to commit sin. We may not be wired to commit the same sins, but, to put it another way, it is our instinct to sin. Now, we are more than just instinct. That's what sets us apart from animals. Instincts and desires, while they may encourage sin, are not themselves sin. Only deliberate acts can be sin. Anyone who does an act and then says "I couldn't help it!" afterwards is denying part of what makes them human. A fleeting desire to punch someone in the face is not sin, but actually doing it would be assault. Even if homosexuality is a sinful desire, finding the male form sexually arousing would not in itself be sin. If you deliberately lust after a man (or a woman or anyone), then that is a sin. Sin is when we let our guard down and give into evil instincts.

I cannot tell you what to believe. I can only ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth. It is a personal journey, and each person must travel it on their own. We can certainly have companions to talk to, to walk with at certain points along the way, but each path is ultimately unique. If you believe in Christ as the final judge, then know that you will be judged on your actions alone, not those of others.

I hope this has been enlightening to you. I will leave you with I Corinthians 8, regarding the liberty we have in Christ. It is directly concerning the matter of food sacrificed to idols, but I hope that general principles can be extrapolated from it.
I Corinthians 8 wrote:Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Tycherin » 26 Jun 2015, 16:34

If I can sidestep the whole religion discussion for a minute...
AdmiralMemo wrote:On this history-making day, as someone who's not really a part of this, I want to ask something of those who are: Where do you think the LGBT movement will be in the next, say, 5 to 10 years? This is to look ahead not to the immediate future, but still close enough that we'll all probably be around to talk about it. Are there issues you think will be basically "resolved" by that point? Are there issues you think will still be very heated battlegrounds? What are your predictions, hopes, and fears?

Well, it took us about 5-10 years to get rid of racism after striking down "separate but equal," sure, but we've come a long way as a society since then. The viral nature of social media has really accelerated the spread of information and ideas through American culture, and the cultural pressure is really pro-gay rights for the most part. I figure we'll have this worked out in two or three years, maybe less if we work quickly.

(Also sarcasm, just so we're clear.)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 27 Jun 2015, 01:58

We're 'wired' to commit sin by the thing that created us. It's not our fault that blowing into dust and taking a rib was a flawed idea at creating life.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 27 Jun 2015, 02:15

I feel like we have reached the extent of discussing Gay in the context of the Bible for the time being, since we're now talking solely about sin when Christianity is mentioned.

I think things will move faster in the cities. Slow in the country.
I think the internet can help with equal rights. You do have pockets of extreme opinion, but on balance I feel like the internet is very liberal. It's just the extreme pockets are the most loud so people notice them more.

If you did a graph of everything you read on the internet of:
EXTREME OPINION and NOT, you'll notice there's a lot of un agenda d stuff to be found. Like people talking about their holiday or expressing their fondness of otters.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 27 Jun 2015, 07:56

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:I feel like we have reached the extent of discussing Gay in the context of the Bible for the time being, since we're now talking solely about sin when Christianity is mentioned.
Agreed. I've made the remarks I can to those I feel would be receptive, and I know who are stubbornly rooted and I won't be able to influence.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Psyclone » 27 Jun 2015, 11:17

AdmiralMemo wrote:On this history-making day, as someone who's not really a part of this, I want to ask something of those who are: Where do you think the LGBT movement will be in the next, say, 5 to 10 years? This is to look ahead not to the immediate future, but still close enough that we'll all probably be around to talk about it. Are there issues you think will be basically "resolved" by that point? Are there issues you think will still be very heated battlegrounds? What are your predictions, hopes, and fears?


I think, just as a very baseline thing, we need to focus on what's going to be considerable backlash in the form of violence against LGBTQ people in states where marriage bans were overturned. As awful as it is, I expect we'll hear about a lot of assaults and/or killings, so I think our first priority as a community is protecting people in dangerous situations. Also, enforcing the decision isn't going to be easy - some counties in Alabama have stopped giving marriage licenses at all just to get around the ruling, and that's not even touching hospitals and insurance companies that will fight it.

After that, I know the ACLU's next project is legal protections against being fired due to sexuality, though I would say that gay/trans panic laws are more important to strike down (it's a valid defense in all states except California). The other big legal challenge is securing rights and protection for trans people, which are nonexistent in most states.

As a community, I know a lot of people are focusing on homelessness and setting up support networks for teens, as well as integrating non-LGB members more fully into the community. The main difficulty I forsee is that gay marriage was an easy, popular thing to get behind, and now that it's over a lot of straight allies will step back, thinking the job is done - which is obviously not the case; racism is still here even after every law we've passed (not that I'm comparing the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement, but just as an example). It will be harder to get support for our causes now because they're a lot less palatable and don't have any pretty slogans, and they're more complex, so it's harder to just get behind it without thinking.

How soon? Now that we have court precedent, I think a lot of the little things, like being fired or denied benefits, will be wrapped up within the next five years. I doubt we'll see a supreme court case about gay/trans panic, so that'll be state by state, which could take 50+ years, and a supreme court case for trans rights is a long way off. In terms of popular sentiment and inter-community issues, like Tycherin said, that's not going to go away. It's certainly going to get better, but I'm betting noticeable changes won't happen until at least the 25 year mark, and the fight will obviously still be going after that.

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic? I'm not sure. Progress will definitely speed up once the baby boomers die off and our government gets handed over to gen x or gen y. I just don't expect to see much support from straight allies, and a lot of 'what more do you want? you can get married now!' instead of actual help.

(Also, hi, been a while.)


Edited to add that all of this is very US-centric, obviously, and that the queer rights movement definitely should be focusing on supporting any movements in other countries, but I don't know enough about issues in those countries to make any speculations.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 27 Jun 2015, 16:03

Psyclone wrote:Edited to add that all of this is very US-centric, obviously, and that the queer rights movement definitely should be focusing on supporting any movements in other countries, but I don't know enough about issues in those countries to make any speculations.
Fair enough. I didn't expect US people to answer about the global question, but since we have a global community, each person could answer for their own area. :)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Twinklefeet » 28 Jun 2015, 03:30

Psyclone wrote:As well as integrating non-LGB members more fully into the community. The main difficulty I forsee is that gay marriage was an easy, popular thing to get behind, and now that it's over a lot of straight allies will step back, thinking the job is done - which is obviously not the case; racism is still here even after every law we've passed (not that I'm comparing the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement, but just as an example). It will be harder to get support for our causes now because they're a lot less palatable and don't have any pretty slogans, and they're more complex, so it's harder to just get behind it without thinking.


Like AdmiralMemo I'm not really a part of this, but I do have some very close friends who are and I just wanted to express how informative and helpful being able to see some other perspectives has been. In the last few days I've seen some pretty destructive arguments from people I care about that seemed extremely counter-productive and I just could not understand where they were coming from. I think this is essentially the point that was trying to be made, but it was obfuscated by some pretty vicious dialogue going on. I'm really glad that my eyes could be opened a little more.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Psyclone » 28 Jun 2015, 12:26

There's been a lot of talk within the community about this ruling and what it means for the majority of the community versus the 'face' of the community, and whether it's as big of a victory as it's being made out to be. I think the consensus is that it's a great thing but that it focuses too much on cis white gay men/lesbians and that trans people and qpoc are being thrown under the bus a little.

My guess is that the arguments you were hearing were coming from a place of frustration with all of the celebration and wanting to hear people talking about the next steps or about people who feel excluded from that celebration (e.g. it being heralded as 'gay marriage' when it means that bi and pan people can marry their partners as well). A lot of people I'm close to were making similar arguments and it kind of does feel like "can't we all just be happy for one day and then think about all this?" but with that milestone out of the way things kind of seem directionless right now so it's easy to be negative.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 28 Jun 2015, 12:36

One day I wish I could express my feelings on LGB issues on Facebook without endangering my friendships. I don't have the confidence to do this.

Closest I've done is talk one and one with a friend in person face to face.

I don't live in a closet of sorts. But I do have "women" down as who I am interested in on Facebook and not "men" as well. And I step away from discussing LGB politics on Facebook. In that regard I am in the closet with my friends.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby viscomica » 28 Jun 2015, 18:40

I know I'm being late to the party but... congrats America, you did well :)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 28 Jun 2015, 19:22

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:One day I wish I could express my feelings on LGB issues on Facebook without endangering my friendships. I don't have the confidence to do this.

Closest I've done is talk one and one with a friend in person face to face.

I don't live in a closet of sorts. But I do have "women" down as who I am interested in on Facebook and not "men" as well. And I step away from discussing LGB politics on Facebook. In that regard I am in the closet with my friends.
Well, I don't know about that specific setting, but you can certainly make friend groups on FaceBook and just share posts to them, and not everybody, if you wish. Maybe that helps, maybe not. *shrugs*
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 30 Jun 2015, 22:18

AdmiralMemo wrote:On this history-making day, as someone who's not really a part of this, I want to ask something of those who are: Where do you think the LGBT movement will be in the next, say, 5 to 10 years?


AdmiralMemo wrote:I will leave you with I Corinthians 8


I am really rather miffed that you'd come into the gay thread and drop a nice big contextless chunk of Paul's letters to the Corinthians. Because we all need advice from a dude who didn't know what a goddamn germ was, who wrote a metaphor about idolatrous food that you think is analogous to me lusting after my boyfriend.

Love how you bolded it to make sure to rub in the fact that you consider gay love to be nothing more than lust.

I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, but I think this post is kind of rude.

----

You want to know where I think the LGBT movement will be in the next 5 to 10 years? I think, worldwide, it'll mostly be in the same place. Some things will get better. Some things will stay the same.

If you look at the arc of history, gay rights have come remarkably far in a very short amount of time, at least in Europe, the United States, and Canada. Women and people of color have fought longer and harder and found less in the way of acceptance. But inevitably, with each stride forward comes backlash, a never-ending struggle by certain groups against the march of progress, groups who see that it is in their best interest, in the interest of the power they hold, to maintain the status quo. I've been disabused of the notion that the march of progress is actually a march at all, or if it's always in the forward direction. There are numerous times and cultures in which homosexuality was considered normal, part of life, until conflict with other cultures lead to reversals. I feel like this could happen in the US, very easily, with the election of a Republican president and a mostly Republican legislature.

So, sure. In the next five to ten years, in the US and Canada and Europe, gay and lesbian and bisexual people will get married. They'll adopt foster children, rescue them from the fucking nightmare of not knowing a stable home, will feed them and raise them and love them. They will love each other, and they will grow old together, and fewer will die alone in hospitals, barred from seeing those they love before death. They will remember a time when that was not the case. They will be grateful.

A few states will adopt employment nondiscrimination measures. A few states will explicitly allow employment discrimination by passing "right to work" laws. A few states will amend their healthcare laws to include provisions for guaranteeing LGBT care. Most will not.

In ten years, in Massachusetts and California, some schools will try to start teaching LGBT history. Outcry and pressure from conservative groups will lead to schools abandoning the plan.

In five years, the number of young gay men in the US diagnosed with HIV will continue to increase, worryingly. The number on PrEP will also increase. In ten years, the number of gay men with HIV will plummet.

In ten years, in the US, conversion therapy will be banned. Christian pastors will rebrand it, avoiding the label conversion therapy, marketing it more subtly to ignorant parents who just want a normal kid, who feel like they've lost control, who feel like their child isn't growing up into who they expected. There will be lawsuits. The number of men and women who hate themselves and who they are because of this will slowly stop growing. Some of those people will heal and move on.

In five to ten years, a few "normal" token gay characters will begin to appear on Korean dramas. A few of those will not be censored in China. A few people will come out more publicly, will choose to not get married to people of the opposite sex, will live more honest, but still secretive, lives. Japan will continue to censor pornographic gay manga, but cute gay mascots will be more common. A few prefectures will legalize gay marriage. A few more Shinto priests will marry same-sex couples.

In five to ten years, there will be more US States that have passed bills barring transgender individuals from using the bathrooms they feel most comfortable using. It will be worse in Brazil. It will be worse still in Vietnam. Transgender people, mostly women, will be subject to violence. Many will die. The International Transgender Day of Remembrance will add another page, every year. LGBT murders will continue to increase, with victims being mostly people of color. The list will grow longer.

In five to ten years, the Christians who convinced Uganda to make homosexuality punishable by death (which was softened, generously, to life in prison) will likely themselves be in prison. They will be disavowed as "true Christians," at least in word, by the "real Christians." They will write several books. They will grow old. The next David Kato, whoever he is, perhaps he or she will be slightly less likely to be bludgeoned to death. Politicians in the United States will shake their heads, and wag their tongues.

Perhaps, in five to ten years, the percentage of homeless teens who are LGBT will drop from forty to thirty, though likely not before rising slightly as more teens dare to be themselves and are evicted from their conservative homes, shunned by their parents as sinners, as smears on the good name of their family, the name they worked so hard to build. Perhaps these teens will find more open shelters, more low barrier housing, to begin to make their way in the world, to create the art and culture and fashion and science that the rest of the country excitedly consumes. Slightly fewer LGBT kids will kill themselves.

In five to ten years, gay and lesbian kids whose parents can afford internet access won't grow up thinking they're fully broken, that they're weird, that they're alone. They will have information and meet friends and find support. They will grow estranged from their families, and some will be rejected from them, but not all. They will still experience pain and confusion and sadness, fraught relationships with their parents and their school friends and their church. They will stop going to church. They will struggle with self-hate and self-doubt as they mature, but will steel themselves with the knowledge of shared experience. They will not wonder if anyone actually, truly loves them, or knows who they are. They will survive.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 01 Jul 2015, 01:31

AlexanderDitto wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:I will leave you with I Corinthians 8


I am really rather miffed that you'd come into the gay thread and drop a nice big contextless chunk of Paul's letters to the Corinthians. Because we all need advice from a dude who didn't know what a goddamn germ was, who wrote a metaphor about idolatrous food that you think is analogous to me lusting after my boyfriend.

Love how you bolded it to make sure to rub in the fact that you consider gay love to be nothing more than lust.

I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, but I think this post is kind of rude.


I asked him to.

An issue for LGBT people is the opinion of some Christians. The scripture is not clear (as far as I know) on the matter. To communicate with some Christians an opinion, you do have to get theological and reference scriptures because in Christianity, the Bible is the word of God. So it was appropriate for a time in this thread to discuss homosexuality and how it's presented in The Bible because this has to be sorted out.

You've experienced why I care about this matter. You've felt insulted as a result of some of the verses being quoted. I have no idea how this has affected your opinion on Christianity. Has it alienated you? These are not good things. This is not what spreading the good news is about. It's meant to be inclusive, and yet it's pushing people away who feel they are being attacked.

We all agreed there was nothing more to be gained by discussing this matter further since it was becoming a tangent and I was concerned that it would derail the thread. I didn't want to turn the Gay thread into the Christian scripture with no context to the OT thread.

That is why Memo posted that.
It is an opinion. I understand the logic behind it, but the wording could be a lot better in places.

I'm not surprised you got offended.

(What I got from Memo's post was: If being homosexual in itself is sinful, gauge how much of a sin it is. Is it worse than murder? Worse than being jealous of other? Worse than stealing? Worse than abusing others? Worse than harming others? No. It's loving someone who happens to be the same gender as them. It's a sin born of sincere love. It's not a lust. It's not loving the adulterer or loving to be an adulterer. If you have eyes for only one person, and you two love each other mutually, why should it be bad if both of you are the same sex?
Why should we not ask why? Why should we not want to understand?
We're all imperfect. We will never get 100% goodness. If it is a sin, why does it matter?
---
I believe when I was growing up, if I was told that bisexuality existed, that would have helped a lot. I was under the impression you were "straight" or "gay".

There was Captain Jack Harkness, but I wasn't American. I wasn't flamboyant. I wasn't camp. So I couldn't relate to him. For years I put my feelings towards boys I found attractive as "a phase of adolescence", a very prolonged phase that wasn't ending.

Even now I find it difficult to find "role models" because I don't come across bisexual males in media. They exist in Video Games, and that's great. You have characters like Kaiden, Anders and Iron Bull who are bisexual but aren't a stereotype (I've expressed this feeling before about stereotypes and offended). In TV, when I do come across them, they come with gay sex, which doesn't really appeal. I think anal is unhygienic and potentially very damaging (since there is no reason why the butt would need to evolve to serve such a purpose. Plus with the inclusion of poop, any damage is potentially serious).

I'd like more people represented on TV, Film (and games) who are not straight, but doesn't need to use sex to establish/prove their sexuality. More people, more diverse people. Then there are more examples of none straight people. So people growing up will have a better understanding of who they are.

When I told my sister I was bisexual, she thought that I was someone who "If was in a relationship with a woman, would be looking to be in a relationship with a man as well."
This is my sister who reads books and watches media. This is ignorance. I did explain that all it meant was "indifference of gender". It's not just people who are growing up who need examples in characters. It's everyone else, so they can be educated.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 01 Jul 2015, 02:11

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:The scripture is not clear (as far as I know) on the matter. To communicate with some Christians an opinion, you do have to get theological and reference scriptures because in Christianity, the Bible is the word of God. So it was appropriate for a time in this thread to discuss homosexuality and how it's presented in The Bible because this has to be sorted out.


The Bible does say quite often in the 300+ Commandments that men and women shouldn't do this but when it comes to being gay. A man shall not lay with another man. But it is the one instance that the rule is the same for women. So it appears God hates gay men but loves lesbians.

Also, I think you need to read up on how the Bible was actually made.
Short version:
A gentleman (forgot his name) was going to bring the books together to form the bible. The Papacy didn't like the idea of someone making something canon who wasn't the head of the church. They decided to do it themselves and in doing so threw out a ton of other books that went with their interpretation of God's Word.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 01 Jul 2015, 06:18

An interesting take on the reasons behind opposition to same sex marriage. What do you think? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/gay-marriage-scotus-ross-douthat-oppression-vs-love
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 01 Jul 2015, 11:19

Elomin Sha wrote:
Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:The scripture is not clear (as far as I know) on the matter. To communicate with some Christians an opinion, you do have to get theological and reference scriptures because in Christianity, the Bible is the word of God. So it was appropriate for a time in this thread to discuss homosexuality and how it's presented in The Bible because this has to be sorted out.


The Bible does say quite often in the 300+ Commandments that men and women shouldn't do this but when it comes to being gay. A man shall not lay with another man. But it is the one instance that the rule is the same for women. So it appears God hates gay men but loves lesbians.

Also, I think you need to read up on how the Bible was actually made.
Short version:
A gentleman (forgot his name) was going to bring the books together to form the bible. The Papacy didn't like the idea of someone making something canon who wasn't the head of the church. They decided to do it themselves and in doing so threw out a ton of other books that went with their interpretation of God's Word.


I wrote a blogpost a few months back that addresses the verses in the Bible that seem to imply homosexuality is a sin. I use the NIV Bible though:
https://merrymakermortalis.wordpress.com/2015/01/23/homosexuality-in-the-bible/

An interesting piece of Trivia I learnt was that in the days of Sodomon, raping a person was a way to destroy someone's value as a human being. You can rape anyone and it won't dictate your sexuality if done out of maliciousness. The people of Sodomon were highly Xenophobic and wanted to rape the visitors (who were angels). It's actually very disgusting and ironic that Lot offers his daughters up for being raped instead.


Regarding the origins of the Bible, I'm interested in seeing the source of that statement.
I know the Bible has been very vulnerable for being tampered with over the many years it has existed.
But you have to try and treat everything as true because you have no idea what could be false and what could not be.
My faith does not come from a book that has been written and rewritten and translated. It comes from a God that is still living and still working and who has saved me and keeps saving me. I put my faith in God Lord Jesus Christ, not a book.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 01 Jul 2015, 11:31

Guys, can we move any more religious discussions to a religion thread? It's starting to wear on me, and I'm only peripherally queer. I'd like to keep this thread as a safe space for people who may have been discriminated against in the name of religion before.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Twinklefeet » 01 Jul 2015, 11:51

Fayili wrote:An interesting take on the reasons behind opposition to same sex marriage. What do you think? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/gay-marriage-scotus-ross-douthat-oppression-vs-love


It's certainly an interesting read. I can definitely believe that some opposition to same sex marriage stems from a perceived obligation or duty that marriage entails being thrown out of the window. Seeing it not just as an expression of love between two people, but a contract with some sort of moral imperative to prevent the breakdown of traditional family values or something similar. Of course I don't really agree and think people put far too much value on traditional family things, so any argument made to that effect would hardly sway me. I'm not so sure I'd agree as much with marriage as an expression of dominance, it seems a more outdated view than the other elements. Though I guess there are definitely going to be people out there with that opinion, eager to disappoint.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 01 Jul 2015, 12:09

I found the article spent too long to get to the point. Then the point felt like it was speculation.

Certainly one interesting perspective on things.

What is marriage? (not talking about religious marriage since we've may have expended the amount of RE)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 01 Jul 2015, 12:20

A legal contract that allows you certain rights and privileges under the law, including things normally only allowed to family (hospital visits, being one taxable entity).
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 01 Jul 2015, 15:02

The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
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