This thread is so gay

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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Jun 2015, 07:28

On this history-making day, as someone who's not really a part of this, I want to ask something of those who are: Where do you think the LGBT movement will be in the next, say, 5 to 10 years? This is to look ahead not to the immediate future, but still close enough that we'll all probably be around to talk about it. Are there issues you think will be basically "resolved" by that point? Are there issues you think will still be very heated battlegrounds? What are your predictions, hopes, and fears?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby aeric90 » 26 Jun 2015, 08:06

There's still things that need to be fixed in the U.S. As AlexanderDitto pointed out, there are states where corporations and businesses can still legally discriminate against gays in various ways. Certain areas still marginalize hate crimes against the LGBT community. We still have a lot of work to do on Trans rights. Beyond that there is still more discrimination against LGBT visible minorities and women than out that we can still rally behind.

Local LGBT activism should also be used to educate, inform, and act on the suffering of the community in other places such as Africa, Russia, and the Middle East

Also it's important to note how civil rights in the U.S. has taken a big backslide. We have to remain vigilant and vocal to prevent it from happening again.

We just took a few skips down the Yellow Brick Road. We're not at the Emerald City yet.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 08:09

I think there will always be friction between Religion and Sexuality.

There are Christians who don't think being homosexual itself is a sin (I am one of them). It sucks that the wording of the Bible is not definite. Speaks only of Homosexual Offenders and Sexual Immorality.

My hope for the future is that being homosexual/bisexual is seen as normal as heterosexual. I.E. you can ask someone out who is the same gender as you and not be worried that you might alienate them.

On the flip side, men will be more comfortable with being sensitive and emotive. Showing effeminate traits. Likewise women feel more comfortable showing masculine traits.

I do think gender equality is tied into this as well.

Back on topic of friction between Religion and Homosexuality. As long as homosexual culture parodies religion and people who identify themselves as religious verbally attack homosexuality, I don't think it will ever die down.

I visit sites with soft male homosexual content and occasionally you get some media with a Religious theme to it and it makes me cringe. Turning a pastor and someone seeking pastoral care into a homoerotic scenario is not helping! And that is probably sinful!

If you don't want zealous religious fanatics shitting at you, don't give them reason to...
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 26 Jun 2015, 08:22

Merry, "If you don't want zealous religious fanatics shitting at you, don't give them reason to..." is kind of victim blame-y? People are always gonna mess religion up in sex because they have mixed feelings about religion. There's a whole swath of "straight" porn involving nuns. It's not and never has been just homosexual stuff.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 09:13

AdmiralMemo wrote:On this history-making day, as someone who's not really a part of this, I want to ask something of those who are: Where do you think the LGBT movement will be in the next, say, 5 to 10 years? This is to look ahead not to the immediate future, but still close enough that we'll all probably be around to talk about it. Are there issues you think will be basically "resolved" by that point? Are there issues you think will still be very heated battlegrounds? What are your predictions, hopes, and fears?


I think your answer might be to look up here in Canada, Memo. Same-sex marriage was legalized nation-wide in 2005. We're about ten years ahead the US on this stuff. So, what's it like?

Well, Ontario's premier is an openly-gay woman. It's illegal to fire someone because of their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is a constitutionally-protected class of exactly the same sort as ethnicity or religion. Politicians need to attend pride parades, or they get whacked in the media. Major banks go out of their way to show how inclusive they are of sexual orientation in their advertising.

Now, obviously there isn't a one-to-one comparison between Canada and the US. You shouldn't expect exactly the same things. We're two different countries with two different cultures.

But, and this is my point, none of the stuff I listed up there (with the possible exception of constitutional protection - I'm not sure of the year of that court case) was true fifteen years ago. I've seen laws change. I've seen society change. I've seen attitudes change.

And those changes have been drastic, sweeping, and quick. Very quick. Total sea change. Prior to 2005, there were debates in Parliament referring to "traditional marriage" and "between one man and one woman." Such language from a politician would make them unelectable today. Homophobic attitudes common in 2000 are today not tolerated in polite company. Same-sex marriage has gone a long way to total normalization... to the point that churches are getting a lot of flack for not getting with the times.

So... yeah. Were I to wager, I'd say that what you can expect is a lot of regressive noise in the next couple of years, followed by a swift shift in societal expectations of what "normal" is. That's your next fifteen years.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 09:30

Also, boy, when the Court knows it's making history, it sure can turn a phrase. Here's Justice Kennedy's closing paragraph from the judgment:

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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 09:38

Fayili wrote:Merry, "If you don't want zealous religious fanatics shitting at you, don't give them reason to..." is kind of victim blame-y? People are always gonna mess religion up in sex because they have mixed feelings about religion. There's a whole swath of "straight" porn involving nuns. It's not and never has been just homosexual stuff.


Aye. I used poor wording.

I meant to point of the sad irony of it.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Jun 2015, 11:22

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:On this history-making day, as someone who's not really a part of this, I want to ask something of those who are: Where do you think the LGBT movement will be in the next, say, 5 to 10 years? This is to look ahead not to the immediate future, but still close enough that we'll all probably be around to talk about it. Are there issues you think will be basically "resolved" by that point? Are there issues you think will still be very heated battlegrounds? What are your predictions, hopes, and fears?
I think your answer might be to look up here in Canada, Memo. Same-sex marriage was legalized nation-wide in 2005. We're about ten years ahead the US on this stuff. So, what's it like?

Well, Ontario's premier is an openly-gay woman. It's illegal to fire someone because of their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is a constitutionally-protected class of exactly the same sort as ethnicity or religion. Politicians need to attend pride parades, or they get whacked in the media. Major banks go out of their way to show how inclusive they are of sexual orientation in their advertising.

Now, obviously there isn't a one-to-one comparison between Canada and the US. You shouldn't expect exactly the same things. We're two different countries with two different cultures.

But, and this is my point, none of the stuff I listed up there (with the possible exception of constitutional protection - I'm not sure of the year of that court case) was true fifteen years ago. I've seen laws change. I've seen society change. I've seen attitudes change.

And those changes have been drastic, sweeping, and quick. Very quick. Total sea change. Prior to 2005, there were debates in Parliament referring to "traditional marriage" and "between one man and one woman." Such language from a politician would make them unelectable today. Homophobic attitudes common in 2000 are today not tolerated in polite company. Same-sex marriage has gone a long way to total normalization... to the point that churches are getting a lot of flack for not getting with the times.

So... yeah. Were I to wager, I'd say that what you can expect is a lot of regressive noise in the next couple of years, followed by a swift shift in societal expectations of what "normal" is. That's your next fifteen years.
That's the US, but I was also trying to get a world-wide take from a world-wide community. What's 15 years in Canada going to look like, for example? In the UK? In Japan? In Australia? In the Middle East? In South America?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 11:30

Ah. Well, as to Canada, we're seeing a lot of movement on trans issues, gender identity issues (by which I mean people identifying as outside the supposed gender binary), and gender normativity issues. I expect that to continue.

Globally, I see a few trends. Mostly related to religion. I'd imagine you'll see churches either try very hard to accommodate LGBTQ people (else they'll die off - young people are leaving in droves since churches don't often match their values)... or they'll double-down in places like Uganda. You'll have some from column A, some from column B.

And, heck, Russia is kind of a big deal. The anti-LGBTQ stuff going on there is very closely tied to Putin's right-wing authoritarianism. I don't see it changing until there's a dramatic democratic vitalization and the regime is ousted. Which means I don't see it happening, unfortunately.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 12:23

The church shouldn't discriminate against LGBTQ at all. The Christian church should be open to all. That is in the Bible.

An issue is this philosophy of thinking of "It's not the person God is against, it's the sin". That is really insulting if you receive it. It implies that you are built to always sin because this "sin" is a part of you.
I think I should go further into this, but I don't think I am equipped with the language to explain in this context.
To me, that thinking comes across as e.g. being homosexual is something you can "overcome" which is false. That "heterosexual" is default. That when you stop someone being homosexual that they are now a happy heterosexual. As opposed to an unhappy closeted homosexual.

I think to remedy this, someone who is unbiased needs to read a lot of translations of the Bible. Read very old versions. Have awareness of of historical and cultural context at the time of writing and be someone people will listen to.

I have my own argument, but it's based off one English translation.
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To me this is a huge issue with the church.

1) It's alienating LGBTQ people. If our mission of Christians is to save people by showing them the love God has for them, how is telling them that they're a humanoid sin going to help?
2) This attitude pushes people who are LGBTQ away from God. Lots of LGBTQ people who were brought up in a Christain family and became atheist due to how they were treated.
3) LGBTQ people die in countries where it's illegal to be that. They're also imprisoned. Christians die in countries where it's illegal to be a Christian. They're also imprisoned. This parallel is really sad. And I weep when in church we pray for the prosecuted Christians when I know LGBTQ people are being prosecuted too.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 12:26

Honestly... I'm not sure why the argument needs to go beyond "These beliefs are wrong; stop it." No need for theology or biblical interpretation. Just decide to act rightly. Surely God can respect that.

But, then, I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm not the right person to be talking about this. :P
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Omega Lairon » 26 Jun 2015, 12:26

So *that's* what that was...

I passed by some manner of congregation on my way over to the Kennedy museum, decided to check out what the fuss was, saw the rainbow flags, so obviously some kind of gay pride thing. But my first thought was "well, Texas, so it's probably a protest or petition or something", because what else could it be, right? But then the speaker was going on about how this is "an historic day" and "a victory for love" and etc.

Of course, at the end where a gay couple whose names escape me right now, but are apparently rather locally (in)famous for their 3 year struggle to be legally wed, had one of the dudes do the whole "down on bent knee" proposal shtick, it all clicked.

I picked a pretty brilliant time to take a vacation.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 12:36

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:Honestly... I'm not sure why the argument needs to go beyond "These beliefs are wrong; stop it." No need for theology or biblical interpretation. Just decide to act rightly. Surely God can respect that.

But, then, I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm not the right person to be talking about this. :P


You have to get biblical and theological about it.

In the Bible, Jesus said "if you follow me, you will be prosecuted in my name". As a Christian, you would make enemies because the Christian values usually fly in the face of social norms.

Examples:
Drinking Culture
Self-centered aspiration
Casual and insincere sex with multiple people

This means... some Christians who think Homosexuality in itself is sinful will stand strong when society tells them "that's quite bigotry". Because they think it's just Society Vs Christianity.

We are all flawed people. You don't have to be a Christian to know that. So, even the most righteous Christian will misjudgments. I feel that they perhaps don't think from the other point of view because they don't have it. They aren't gay. So how would they know what gay is being like. They only know what others tell them. I don't know what being gay is like. I only know what being bisexual is like.

It is a debate that has to use the scripture. Because it is the word of God. We must have a clear opinion on the matter.
---
My opinion. No one has any valid argument to prevent same sex marriage from being legal.

Christian Marriage is another thing. legally it's the same function. Spiritually, it can be different. In this case, in light of the ambiguity of the Bible's stance on it, it should be open. Respect if a pastor is not happy with marrying a same sex couple.


I need to find someone Christian who is wise who can tell me the function of marriage. Then I could compile a more solid theological argument in favor of "don't discriminate against same sex marriage".

Bearing children cannot be a criteria since that would mean all couples should have a fertility test before marriage. And if a couple fails to have a child, their marriage gets nullified.

What I know of Christian Marriage is that it's a bond between two people until death separates them. They join in spirit. They encourage and support each other. But from what I know, I can't see anything that dictates gender. Even roles in marriage are just roles. If in a heterosexual marriage, a man does a "woman's duty" and a woman does a "man's duty", does this nullify it? No.

I'm not looking forwards to having this discussion with my friends in the future. It will come up. I don't want to lose them.
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I'm getting Baptized in September. I guess if homosexuality is indeed a sin, I may stop finding the male form sexually arousing afterwards as a result.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 12:41

Well, see, I'm not so sure you need a biblical justification. I used to be Roman Catholic. The Catholic Church is against birth control; using it is a sin. Most Catholics, though, just say "Eh? Naw. It isn't." and go about their business. They make the moral judgment for themselves.

I don't see why that can't be the case, here, as well.

But then... again... what do I know? It's your faith, I shouldn't pretend to speak about it, really.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 12:43

You are right.

But to talk to the people where it would matter, you need to be able to wield the scripture.

The Catholic Church is a very organised church. And there's an irony there's an element of rule keeping with it. The rule keeping is what separates Christianity from Judaism (in addition with following Jesus).
The keeping of the rules distracted people from their faith. It created a feeling of "earning your salvation". When in fact salvation is gifted.

Jesus preaches about loving God, loving others, and having tolerance.
I sometimes feel like these are forgotten about. They're put aside to pursuit a zealous crusade against the "infidels". Ironically, that mentality is prominent in the Old Testament. In the new Testament, Jesus scowls a disciple who attacks a solider out of defense.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 26 Jun 2015, 12:44

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:Honestly... I'm not sure why the argument needs to go beyond "These beliefs are wrong; stop it." No need for theology or biblical interpretation. Just decide to act rightly. Surely God can respect that.

But, then, I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm not the right person to be talking about this. :P


Most people of faith want guidance from their religion in most, if not all, major aspects of their life I think. This is certainly a major thing, and also for many seems to fall under the purview of "morality" which is where religions have most of their sway.

Now, a lot of religions ARE founded on some variation of "don't be a dick," but a lot of them also have various caveats in order to create a strong sense of community (by excluding others), and many have also had people try to make them be about what they thought was "right." Unfortunately, many of those people got to the religion early enough that they were able to work their power grab into the foundational texts.

Basically, religion is weird, but it provides a strong framework for a way of life for many people, and they want to continue to use it that way.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 12:55

To a Christian, the Bible is the Word of God.
You could question if indeed every word in there is chosen by God. Once you do that, you start doubting everything. Then it's pointless. The only thing you can do is believe everything, but pray for guidance so that if maybe it's been corrupted, you can stay on path.

Regarding sin of contraception, that's a debate. You could argue masturbation is a sin and wet dreams are a sin. Masturbation is not a sin, but in the Old Testament it makes you spiritually unclean for the day (unless you wash). Christians have no reason to follow the old laws of the Old Testament.
Basically, I think that's due to human interpretation of the Bible. Humans, who are imperfect beings who can corrupt or push agenda consciously/subconsciously.

Only thing you can do as a Christian is ignore other people's opinions and read the Bible itself and pray for guidance.

I think the benefits of contraception out weigh the negatives. I think it would be sinful to prevent people from using contraception.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 26 Jun 2015, 13:08

To some Christians, the Bible is the Word of God.

To my mother, for example, who has seen church politics get nasty dozens of times, the Bible was written by people and has been interpreted thousands of different ways over the years. She's still religious, but no longer chooses to attend church. That doesn't make her not a Christian, just wary of people trying to put their on spin on "The Word of God."
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 13:47

^ So true.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 13:57

Yeah... I think this is part of why I stopped being Catholic, to be honest.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 14:03

I'm sorry to hear.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 26 Jun 2015, 14:04

I'm not, actually. But thanks. :)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Jun 2015, 14:04

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:An issue is this philosophy of thinking of "It's not the person God is against, it's the sin". That is really insulting if you receive it. It implies that you are built to always sin because this "sin" is a part of you.
But... it is and we are. Sin is a part of us, and if you don't think it is, then I would like to hear your thoughts on "the flesh" and "the outward man" and "original sin."
Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:I need to find someone Christian who is wise who can tell me the function of marriage.
As for this, one thing I can say is that, apart from procreation, marriage is symbolic of Christ's bond with the Church. You can read in Revelation how there will be the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" with the Church as His Bride. (Revelation 19:6-9)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 26 Jun 2015, 14:05

With what has happed to day in America (finally) you usually have some religious people outlining how marriage in the Bible is between a man and women, forgetting the condoning of the mistress, the slaves, POWs. It tends to be a mess, especially the one of the rapist and the victim. 'Really want to marry that one girl who doesn't like you, rape her then pay the family for her being damaged goods'. Deuteronomy is strange.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 26 Jun 2015, 14:10

Deuteronomy is of the old Covenant. The Old Testament. It reflects Judaism alone.

AdmiralMemo wrote:But... it is and we are. Sin is a part of us, and if you don't think it is, then I would like to hear your thoughts on "the flesh" and "the outward man" and "original sin."


So how does this apply to homosexuality? In your opinion.

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