Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Danielle Pepin » 03 Dec 2016, 16:02

Which demographic is it saying things might not happen and it's an issue to worry about things before they've been suggested or tabled? There is a good point there as in constantly asking what if is an unhealthy thing to do...but thing is to marginalized demographics they are repeatedly targeted on the table regardless of who's in the President's office and who's there now is a legit cause for concern.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Amake » 04 Dec 2016, 16:39

Hey, I think I cracked the rule for recognizing the dread echo chamber.

It's a place where you have no people who you can trust who will tell you when you're wrong.

You'll note it's almost impossible not to have that somewhere in your life. When you're alone, when you're venting, when you're trapped in a sentimental relationship. Echo chambers are everywhere. It's a danger, obviously, if you never leave them, if you have nothing else. There may even be a discussion to be had about the exact limits of what is an unhealthy amount of echo compared to static. But I don't think there's any point in guessing how members of a group of people you see in their chat room on the Internet have enough people telling them when they're wrong or not.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 04 Dec 2016, 22:00

In my opinion this is an echo chamber. Or at least, the core danger of what an echo chamber is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8BkzvP19v4

The danger of an echo chamber isn't hearing the same thing over an over again. The danger is when you become part of the echo and the echo becomes louder. An echo chamber is a place where people are afraid to say something out of turn. Where they feel pressure to echo what is being said because they don't want to be an outcast. The only way to keep this from happening is making sure that either both sides are heard or neither side is.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Amake » 05 Dec 2016, 05:44

Well, yes. If you don't trust anyone who can tell you when you're wrong you'll hesitate to say anything you think might be wrong. The way to keep that from happening, though, I think is to have more people in your life who you can trust who will tell you when you're wrong.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby AdmiralMemo » 05 Dec 2016, 06:49

As far as the echo chambers within this community go, I've noticed them. However, I stay quiet, rather than either piping up or echoing the sentiment, as it's much easier to do so on the Internet and not be seen as "not conforming." It's much easier to see that 30 people said "Yes" and no one said "No" than to realize that one person (or even 30 other people) didn't answer at all. This is less possible IRL.

For a similar effect, read the short story "Let's Go to Golgotha!" which shows a sort of "directed echo chamber" of sorts towards the end.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Sieg Reyu » 05 Dec 2016, 08:00

AdmiralMemo wrote:As far as the echo chambers within this community go, I've noticed them. However, I stay quiet, rather than either piping up or echoing the sentiment, as it's much easier to do so on the Internet and not be seen as "not conforming." It's much easier to see that 30 people said "Yes" and no one said "No" than to realize that one person (or even 30 other people) didn't answer at all. This is less possible IRL.

For a similar effect, read the short story "Let's Go to Golgotha!" which shows a sort of "directed echo chamber" of sorts towards the end.
That is a damn fine point. And I think a big reason why the opposition in any given arguement is likely to focus on the extremists. Imagine a crowd of people, everyone dressed in a solid color shirt. And every few minutes someone in a purple shirt stabs someone. And its a different person each time. You aren't paying attention to the thousands of purple shirts who aren't stabbing someone, just the 1% that are. And if purple shirts aren't doing anything as noteworthy as stabbing someone, you're going to start thinking purple shirts are homocidal maniacs. Its only natural then, when a purple shirt starts to approach you that you are at the very least going to take a defensive stance, and perhaps, depending on the person, throw a punch before they get a chance to pull the knife out.

Its important that we be cognizant of the bad behavior within our own groups and be able to distance ourselves from them in a way that is noticable for the opposition. Not stabbing someone isn't enough, they could be a stabbist who just hasn't found the right person to stab yet. At the very least they need to show they are unarmed whenever they try to engage someone they are not familiar with online. But that goes for both parties. Because guess what, you're wearing an orange shirt, and orange shirt people are out there shooting people. Sure, you know that you dont have a gun and wouldn't hurt a fly, but they don't know that.

That's why I don't wear solid color shirts.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby korvys » 06 Dec 2016, 00:12

Some semi-connected thoughts.

I think the dangers of echo chambers is real, but ultimately it's up to the individual to spot them and avoid them, or at least also frequent other communities to get a wider view of things.
I feel the same about the Stream Shelter, etc. Hiding away forever is probably a bad idea. But that is each person's problem to face, and providing a place to shelter is not the same as endorsing its constant and consistent use, or a hermetic life in general.

I also think it's very easy to mix up a community that is an echo chamber, in which people's opinions are shouted down because they're unpopular, to a healthy community, in which people's opinions are shouted down because they're wrong.
I should hope that were someone to appear here, and begin talking about how all gay people are pedophiles and rapists, and are going to hell for there sins, etc, etc, that this community would be very quick to tell them that their "opinion" was not welcome. And I don't think that's an echo chamber, as much as not giving dangerously wrong ideas room to grow.

Finally, I don't think this would apply to many here, but some of the times I've heard somewhere described as an echo chamber, it's been pretty clear it's just a rhetorical argument that translates to roughly "My opinion is correct, and the only reason you all disagree is because you're afraid of the social consequences of doing so". It's another form of "I'm just saying what everyone is thinking", or a politician claiming to have the support of "the silent majority". Sometimes you might be judging the situation correctly, and sometimes your original point is just wrong.

(P.S. Fun Fact: "The silent majority" originally referred to dead people (there being more dead than alive over the course of history), which makes political speeches WAY more interesting)
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 06 Dec 2016, 01:01

korvys wrote:I also think it's very easy to mix up a community that is an echo chamber, in which people's opinions are shouted down because they're unpopular, to a healthy community, in which people's opinions are shouted down because they're wrong.
I should hope that were someone to appear here, and begin talking about how all gay people are pedophiles and rapists, and are going to hell for there sins, etc, etc, that this community would be very quick to tell them that their "opinion" was not welcome. And I don't think that's an echo chamber, as much as not giving dangerously wrong ideas room to grow.


A while ago, a friend of mine retweeted that thing that did the rounds a while back saying "Please stop telling me to respect other peoples' opinions. That's for things like 'I don't like coffee' not 'I don't like black people'". I have to say, I profoundly disagreed with this, because I think it sets a double standard on discourse and the value of other peoples' opinions. I copy my response verbatim:

I wrote:If somebody has an opinion I find as distasteful as "I hate black people", then I'd very much rather they not have that opinion. I don't consider it to be useful or productive or to fit in with my code of morals. I would also consider an opinion such as that one I would happily attempt to change in the individual concerned.

But nobody's opinions exist in a vacuum. My opinions are not strictly my own, in much the same as your opinions are not strictly yours or a bigot's opinions are not strictly theirs; they are a by-product of my education, my upbringing, my social background, my ability to interpret the world around me and the world that I am presented with to interpret. This is one of my more key philosophical axioms.

Point being, EVERY opinion in the world today has a reason behind it. Maybe it's what your parents told you, maybe it's what you were exposed to when you were young. A South African friend of mine told me once that when he was growing up (in the early post-Apartheid era) he was trying to be all modern but was worried he might be fundamentally racist because he'd never met any black people who he'd liked. It wasn't until he moved away from home that he realised that was because the black populace where he lived had, almost to a man, not had an education beyond the age of 10 and he didn't find them intelligent conversation as a result. I remember another article written by an American who'd grown up in a racist family, but never thought that was the case- the family had black friends and would rail against the idea that they were racist. They had merely adopted the belief that Mexicans were by default lazy/black people were by default criminals/whatever because that was the cultural stereotype they had been exposed to and that had not been challenged in a way they could relate to. Telling either of those people 'your opinion is invalid' is frankly unproductive and does not allow a social justice movement to make meaningful progress.

Now, as I say, this does not mean these opinions are 'correct' or that they should not be challenged, and if that's what you mean by 'respecting an opinion' then we may simply have been talking across purposes. However, from my exposure to the phrase and how it tends to be applied in conversation, I can't extricate the idea of 'not respecting an opinion' from simply dismissing it and calling its possessor stupid. And that's how we got into this bloody mess in the first place.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby korvys » 06 Dec 2016, 04:02

My pseudonym is Ix wrote:this does not mean these opinions are 'correct' or that they should not be challenged
I can rephrase my post if you like.
korvys wrote:I should hope that were someone to appear here ... that this community would be very quick to tell them that their "opinion" was not welcome challenge that opinion, vigorously.
I consider both versions synonymous.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby ReilaOda » 07 Dec 2016, 21:22

I think that's one of the reasons I love the Stream Shelter so much, when opinions do get raised and they are different, we're quick to discuss and engage. Angry Optimist and Myself often spar on the notions of honesty integrity and human nature. It's good fun.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby ReilaOda » 08 Dec 2016, 22:02

korvys wrote:Some semi-connected thoughts.

I think the dangers of echo chambers is real, but ultimately it's up to the individual to spot them and avoid them, or at least also frequent other communities to get a wider view of things.
I feel the same about the Stream Shelter, etc. Hiding away forever is probably a bad idea. But that is each person's problem to face, and providing a place to shelter is not the same as endorsing its constant and consistent use, or a hermetic life in general.

I also think it's very easy to mix up a community that is an echo chamber, in which people's opinions are shouted down because they're unpopular, to a healthy community, in which people's opinions are shouted down because they're wrong.
I should hope that were someone to appear here, and begin talking about how all gay people are pedophiles and rapists, and are going to hell for there sins, etc, etc, that this community would be very quick to tell them that their "opinion" was not welcome. And I don't think that's an echo chamber, as much as not giving dangerously wrong ideas room to grow.

Finally, I don't think this would apply to many here, but some of the times I've heard somewhere described as an echo chamber, it's been pretty clear it's just a rhetorical argument that translates to roughly "My opinion is correct, and the only reason you all disagree is because you're afraid of the social consequences of doing so". It's another form of "I'm just saying what everyone is thinking", or a politician claiming to have the support of "the silent majority". Sometimes you might be judging the situation correctly, and sometimes your original point is just wrong.

(P.S. Fun Fact: "The silent majority" originally referred to dead people (there being more dead than alive over the course of history), which makes political speeches WAY more interesting)



To me I view the use of the stream shelter to warrant the same kind of usage rate as kicking back and watching a ball game. That's not to say that usage rate may or may not change per person but that's the gist. I notice a lot of names remain constants in the chat, but one of the strangely encouraging things is that the names tend to rotate. That's not to say regulars don't stop in, but the people there for long periods of time tend to rotate out. This means it's working.

I'm an offensive SoB who expresses her Ideas through blunt force trauma, as some of you have witnessed, but in the Stream Shelter I observe more tact then that. There is a fundamental difference that you and I might agree on between dismissing an idea as ignorant with tact, and going 'fuck off'. I am a fan of both tactics in the right situations but even Tact or social elegance has limits. There is a point where going "I disagree" no longer holds weight. Where that line is happens to be different for every individual. So perhaps respect is being used to mean approach each opinion with a degree of social tact and then if the opposition proves completely immune to civilized discussion, move on.

Either by attacking more directly should that suit you, or just leaving the person you deem less then helpful to rot. I appreciate the right to be offensive, as long as I have the right to critique being offensive, and I observe the same right when I am being offensive.

The right to be offensive/free speech goes both ways so if someone isn't respecting my idea, I'm under no obligation to respect the one they propose. Is it more productive to conduct yourself with class, sure, not everyone can be another Milo Yianoppolis level of offensive. Does that mean it always happens that way? Ennnnhhhhh. *Non committal shrug*

So going back to the original point, I consider it being tactful until that proves useless.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 01 Jan 2017, 06:41

AdmiralMemo wrote:Posts by Elomin Sha are now written by RoboRosewater. ;-)


Who the smeg is that?

May be interesting for some:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP62YxBLxSs
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby AdmiralMemo » 01 Jan 2017, 10:49

Makes MtG cards via neural network

Mark Rosewater (aka MaRo) is in charge of WotC design, so this is a robotic version of him.

Also, I like that video. Maybe goes a little far, but that's what humor is supposed to do, right? :-)
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby Elomin Sha » 01 Jan 2017, 12:40

Ah, I was wondering why I kept seeing those cards on Twitter.

Jonathan Ian Mathers is good with Foamy. He goes silly at points but his message is clear.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby Danielle Pepin » 07 Jan 2017, 12:12

Mister_Blue_Sky has disappeared form twitch and DB chat again. He was looking better than I'd ever seen him when he was helping with storm shelter streams probably from feeling needed. If anyone hears from him or has means of contact before I'm able to reach him please let chat mods and/or me know asap.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCU

Postby CommanderKeen » 13 Jan 2017, 04:08

AdmiralMemo wrote:As far as the echo chambers within this community go, I've noticed them. However, I stay quiet, rather than either piping up or echoing the sentiment, as it's much easier to do so on the Internet and not be seen as "not conforming." It's much easier to see that 30 people said "Yes" and no one said "No" than to realize that one person (or even 30 other people) didn't answer at all. This is less possible IRL.



Being on the periphery of this community for a long time- Yeah. there are definitely chambers, and by in large the entire community is one. Not that's necessarily a bad thing, as the leaders of the chamber are, for the most part, good people, I've noticed it's super hit or miss to become one of the cool kids. But if you miss it, it's awfully hard to get in there. This is not to knock to anyone, but it happens in small communities where participation is valued.

As for things on the internet vs real life. It's the same in academic circles- One of my jobs is with a local university and the contrast between that and my job at a "real" workplace is light and day. Universities teach and live an ideal that simply isn't the case in the real world. This is where a lot of conflict comes from, particularly with social justice issues. You have idealistic, and well-meaning people that rightly believe a lot of things hitting a wall of workers that simply don't care because they're struggling to make a buck, and they know that's it's easier to keep their heads down than to speak up.

And for the record I work(not just a side job, my full time career) in technical theatre- one of the most left-leaning communities out there- and even in the professional world, they're much more conservative than their university counterparts. A funny thing happens when you need to make art that ensures butts in seats.


On the actual topic at hand. I have seen personally how safe spaces can both be powerful tools in healing, communication and thought, but I have also seen them as tools to shoot down any thought that doesn't necessarily agree with the whole. Like any community, the moderation of that community is most important. Personally, I think university classrooms should intellectually challenge their occupants- much like they've done for hundreds of years. It's just that it's really easy to interpret things as personal attacks, than what a comment was supposed to be- a generalization.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby Elomin Sha » 13 Jan 2017, 05:54

If I am to refer back to my original question to the old thread of people not knowing how to be adults. Universities are an ideal of what life should be like, you meet new people from around the world. You mingle, you learn to adjust from a setting of secondary/high schools where you are forced into a place of learning and have to deal with people. You choose to go to University. But it is a condensed petri dish of a small community.

Then when you pass your studies, and you are assumed to be capable adults, able to adjust to new matters that arise in your new world where you are not have an semi-uncontested role as the centre of attention.

I don't know what people go through, I don't mind read, to warrant the yearning/need for a silly idea of a safe place (at a base level no where is safe)*. You can read back what I went through. I think I may have gone through more crap of different severities (sexual assaults, bullying, false accusations, etc) than many people here. You know what, no safe-spaces were involved ever (I have thought why but if I say it I know people will take offence to it).

Once you step out of the door and have to fend for yourself, you're adults. You have to deal with it. Some will some won't.
Having a crutch for a while may be beneficial in the short time, but how are you going to cope when that crutch is unavailable?

I go by the mantra; you are not as special as your ego thinks you are. You should be thought of based upon your actions/deeds of your character, not superficial ailments such as skin colour, creed, sex, or where you live.

I will be abrasive when I think it is needed, boy has this place needed it sometimes. The reason I choose to do it in the forum or in life, besides no one else likes to do it and yearns for someone else to do it; I'm not afraid for people to think ill of me.
I know who I am and what people think of me I know already, grounded in some truth or absolutelty misconstrued, mentioning no Odas, I mean names.

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I don't think critical thinking is practised enough.

*Something I wrote at the height of the previous thread by didn't post*
Why I think Safe-spaces are a misnomer and can never exist:

You are sitting on a thin crust of rock that shifts, cracks and breaks every second of every day that could experience a long overdue super volcano event at any moment wiping out humanity. That crust you sit on hurtles around a burning orb of nuclear energy that could strip all life away from the fragile atmosphere to a cold vacuum of radiation. But, none of that matters because you need a safe space as you had someone disagree with you or you look for something stupid to get offended over.

You are the most highly advanced organism of a collective that survived multiple mass extinction events, has transcended its base animality to create civilisations, art, technology, spoken and written language, and even left the planet for a distant rock. Act like it.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby AdmiralMemo » 13 Jan 2017, 06:51

No apologies necessary. :-) I like you because you're bold, blunt, and abrasive. Those are qualities I value.
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby Elomin Sha » 13 Jan 2017, 12:35

YAY SOME ONE LIKE ME!
TAKE THAT ASSHOLES!
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby korvys » 14 Jan 2017, 20:18

But, none of that matters because you need a safe space as you had someone disagree with you or you look for something stupid to get offended over.

Quotes like this trivialise and minimise what people are dealing with, and reveal a failure of empathy.
It's framing what a person has to deal with as insignificant, the response overblown, and the person weak. The person speaking assumes they understand the entire context of what is happening, and can level objective judgement.

People seem to look at the situation, think to themselves "based on what I've seen, and how I would react to that, this person's reaction is overblown and so they must be weaker than me"
People would do well to approach it differently, thinking to themselves "based on what I've seen and how I would react to that, this person's reaction is overblown, so they must be reacting to much more than I've seen."

The question that is currently "why is that person getting so upset over something so trivial?" becomes "what would it take for me to be that upset?".

Empathy and honesty are traits I value. Too many people think only brutal honesty is real honesty, and abrasive and honest are synonymous. They are not, and I have little time for those who would couch unnecessary cruelty in such terms. The truth can hurt, but there are too many people who seem to think the truth must hurt
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby Elomin Sha » 15 Jan 2017, 11:00

Yes, people like that exist. There isn't much you can do besides avoiding them but doing such a thing doesn't really help you develop your tolerance to those you dislike.

When I say I am abrasive with my honesty is because I'm literal with everything, so I rub people the wrong way because of being literal. Ask me for a handful of elastic bands, I will hand you a handful of elastic bands. If people want me to be honest that means that someone has given permission to be open without holding recrimination for what is said.

Story Time, from a couple weeks ago:
Temp workers asked if I thought any of them would be kept on after Christmas. I told them no and listed out all their failings. And I had pernament members of staff back me up as I was saying. There was only one I said we'd hire out of them and I told them why: he was the only one who did his job, listened, asked questions when he was unsure about something and did not assume anything.

If I asked anyone to offer me their honest opinion of what they thought of me, I wouldn't hold it against anyone to speak what they think is correct. Just don't make wayward assumptions, and let there be a response if one is made, don't shut out words otherwise the problem is the one who will not accept a differing opinion.

One of them, who was the worst out of them all, she kept bossing the temps around thinking she was their boss and did it to pernament members of staff. If you correted her on a mistake flatly refused/lied that she never made a mistake. In the end it got to the point where temp and pernament members were getting frustrated with her.
When she asked how likely she would be hired and asked me to be honest, the others took a step back: "You can sell which is a plus, but;
"You lie about your mistakes saying it was nothing to do with you;
"You do not take ownership for your mistakes;
"You don't listen when you are told something, and when you say you weren't told, you in fact were because I was the one that told you to your face;
"You boss the temps around, that is not your role;
"You boss pernament members of staff;
"You speak down to members of staff;
"You demanded to the Manager's face that you should be sent home because it was quiet;
"It is not for you tell us when you want to work in the middle of a that same shift;
"You butt in into conversations and speak for people when it is not your place to do so;
"You are abrasive even in front of customers, customers come first not your petty conversations and diatribes.

Each action I cited reasons for each instance, when the others had made mistakes and learned from them but she hadn't. And much inline with her self-centred character she wanted me written up for an investigation, the day she left, saying she was 'concerned' with how I spoke to her and other staff, but never once stated what I said to the other members of staff that she was concerned about. It was all about herself.

I called her on her bull,and many previous workers male and female. I called out a male staff member who made a comment that a female co-worker was only able to sell because she had breasts,how he demands people do jobs and that he should be listened to.
Dealing with me he had to walk away because he didn't like it when he was brought down a peg, he still can't take it. He once went up to our Manager and asked if he could get me to stop talking to him. Some people can't handle simple honesty, but some needed it to be told because they won't better themselves as an individual.

And before it's piped in I was being unfair to the girl and why her concerns were bull: she gloated every chance she got that she was close friends with Troy Baker, Achievement Hunter, Rooster Teeth and others. Simply to rub in our faces, she'd make conversations up just to talk about herself when no one cared or even asked. Achievement Hunter are the most boistrous people you can meet even when they are playing up for the camera.
She liked it when boistrous or uncomfortable attention is directed at others, whether she was the cause or watching, but was completely thin skinned when the same is reflected upon herself. What was said was honest, but hurt was chosen by bother people I mentioned because it was not the view that was liked
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
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AdmiralMemo
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby AdmiralMemo » 15 Jan 2017, 11:25

Elomin Sha wrote:If I asked anyone to offer me their honest opinion of what they thought of me, I wouldn't hold it against anyone to speak what they think is correct. Just don't make wayward assumptions, and let there be a response if one is made, don't shut out words otherwise the problem is the one who will not accept a differing opinion.
This is the same with me. I think some people are too hesitant to bring real criticism up because they think feelings will be hurt and such. I set up a page to try to get feedback anonymously, because I think some people are more open if they're anonymous. As of yet, I've gotten only one bit of feedback, and it's mostly positive. I need to know my failures in order to fix them. If you're familiar with the Johari Window, I need the feedback to move things from the Blind Spot to the Arena.

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I honestly don't think I have very much in the "Façade" zone.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Elomin Sha
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby Elomin Sha » 16 Jan 2017, 03:34

That's an interesting idea, the only problem I would have that is the not knowing who said it. Do they actually know me, what were their interactions with me, are they doing it to make fun of me?
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
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AdmiralMemo
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Re: Alex's Stream Shelter? Safe Spaces? Echo Chambers? DISCUSS.

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Jan 2017, 06:42

Fair enough, but I have no IRL friends, so no one... "actually" knows me... And of course, I'll take it with a grain of salt, just in case they're doing it to make fun of me. But I'm working with basically nothing, so I've got to start somewhere.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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