TTC - Constructed Update

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James
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TTC - Constructed Update

Postby James » 20 Jun 2015, 14:34

Join Graham, Alex and Cam on this weeks TapTapConcede where Cam updates us on his FNM performance from last week and the changes he made to his deck. And Alex runs through his latest Highlander brew.


Support this show (and other things!): http://Patreon.com/loadingreadyrun
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby TheHokeyPokey » 20 Jun 2015, 16:54

I have a quick rules clarification on Undying + Persist. Both go on the stack, but only the top one resolves because the creature is no longer in the graveyard. So if you do this with a Redcap and Mikaeus, it would return as either a 2/2 or a 4/4. When you sacrifice it, the one that didn't resolve last time triggers. So it still works, but the Redcap would alternate between 2/2 and 4/4 instead of repeatedly entering as a 3/3.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby steric hindrance » 20 Jun 2015, 19:17

Almost, but not quite. Here's a step-by-step description of what happens when you have a creature with both Persist and Undying:
  • Your creature dies. Both Persist and Undying trigger, and as the controller of both of those effects, you get to choose how to stack them. Both players pass priority.
  • Let's say you chose Persist, then Undying. Undying is the top effect on the stack and will resolve first. Your creature returns to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.
  • Now, the other effect is still on the stack (Persist). This won't do anything, as the effect specifies, "When this creature dies," and the creature that you just returned to the battlefield is a new object and is seen by the game as a different creature from the one that just died.
  • If your creature dies again, perhaps to a sac outlet, then the process will happen again. Now, if you want to create a loop, you will put Undying, then Persist on the stack; the creature will return with a -1/-1 counter and you start again at the top.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby Dusk_Shine » 20 Jun 2015, 19:55

For Cam's perusal, my take on the Villainous Wealth deck.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/

It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby steric hindrance » 20 Jun 2015, 20:02

Dusk_Shine wrote:For Cam's perusal, my take on the Villainous Wealth deck.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/

It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.


Have you tried Genesis Hydra? It can help you grind out control's removal by presenting two large threats at once, especially since it's a "cast" trigger and not an "enters the battlefield" one.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby TheHokeyPokey » 20 Jun 2015, 20:05

steric hindrance wrote:Almost, but not quite. Here's a step-by-step description of what happens when you have a creature with both Persist and Undying:
  • Your creature dies. Both Persist and Undying trigger, and as the controller of both of those effects, you get to choose how to stack them. Both players pass priority.
  • Let's say you chose Persist, then Undying. Undying is the top effect on the stack and will resolve first. Your creature returns to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.
  • Now, the other effect is still on the stack (Persist). This won't do anything, as the effect specifies, "When this creature dies," and the creature that you just returned to the battlefield is a new object and is seen by the game as a different creature from the one that just died.
  • If your creature dies again, perhaps to a sac outlet, then the process will happen again. Now, if you want to create a loop, you will put Undying, then Persist on the stack; the creature will return with a -1/-1 counter and you start again at the top.


That's what I said with more words.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby Dusk_Shine » 20 Jun 2015, 20:06

steric hindrance wrote:
Dusk_Shine wrote:For Cam's perusal, my take on the Villainous Wealth deck.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/

It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.


Have you tried Genesis Hydra? It can help you grind out control's removal by presenting two large threats at once, especially since it's a "cast" trigger and not an "enters the battlefield" one.


I might switch a couple in for the Hooded Hydra in the main and the Bow in the board.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby OneirosGolem » 20 Jun 2015, 20:52

After reading those responses and coming to a couple different revelations, I think the important thing is: a creature with both undying and persist always comes back to life with some form of 1/1 counter on it (+ or -), and never at base power & toughness. In typical scenarios and a 0-cost sacrifice outlet, this still allows an infinite loop with it oscillating between undying or persist at each iteration.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby Snowman » 20 Jun 2015, 22:36

For some reason I just read Constructed Updates, skipping the TTC tag and was expecting something funny happened at the construction site next door (or pit).
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby fantôme » 21 Jun 2015, 01:46

I love the direction Alex's Highlander deck is taking. Fiend Hunter / Leonin Relic Warder / Oblivion Ring et al. is another loop that seems like it could fit in there.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby DestructoR » 24 Jun 2015, 13:34

Great show, I listen every week on my drive home from work.
Nice combos in the highlander deck!
I don't think the Murderous Redcap/Kitchen Finks + Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit produces an infinite loop, though. LSV was also wrong about this one, I believe. Persist reads, "When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield... with a -1/-1 counter on it." So:

1. Cast Redcap, Anafenza's ability goes on the stack, gives Redcap a +1/+1 counter. He's a 3/3 and deals 3 damage to something.
2. Sac Redcap to a repeatable outlet.
3. Redcap returns, Persist sticks a -1/-1 counter on it. Anafenza gives Redcap a +1/+1 counter, so it is a 2/2 creature with a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter, so it has net 2/2 power/toughness and does 2 damage to something.
4. Sac Redcap again.
5. Redcap does not trigger its own Persist, because it had that -1/-1 counter on it, and therefore sits in the bin.

Unless -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters literally annihilate one another and disappear?

The reason this is an infinite combo with Melira is that Melira prevents your creatures from getting the -1/-1 counters at all, so Persist can keep triggering with each death.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby Jenelmo » 25 Jun 2015, 02:51

DestructoR wrote:Unless -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters literally annihilate one another and disappear?


That they do
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby ineon » 26 Jun 2015, 06:57

I think the biggest threat to Alex's highlander deck is Alex:

Hmmm... I could swing for lethal this turn, or next turn I could combo off in a way that I never even thought of.

"I pass the turn"
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update

Postby leoevans631 » 27 Jun 2015, 09:39

So my friend plays an EDH version of Alexes deck, Reveillark triggers when it LEAVES the play, the combo is sac Karmic Guide sac win con sac Reveillark get win con and Karmic, Karmic gets Reveillark, rinse repeat.

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